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Author Topic: Catalan Referendum and Possible Independance  (Read 305 times)
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marion
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« on: October 04, 2017, 08:45:28 pm »

Catalans day they will declare independance in a few days. EU says this is a bigger threat to Europe than Brexit.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4945880/Spain-s-King-Felipe-VI-condemns-Catalan-authorities.html
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 08:47:34 pm by marion » Logged
Joanna
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« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2017, 10:19:34 pm »

Indeed, it's extremely serious. It's the unity of Spain, Spain as the world has known since 1492 that is at risk. The only situation that would be similar would be if Scotland declared Independence from the UK but now that threat doesn't really affect negatively the EU, IMO.
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« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2017, 11:17:57 pm »

I am severely under educated on this so bear with me.  Our media in the US is covering this pretty lightly but it seems like a big deal to me.  Is it bad that they want independence and why because it looks, from the outise, as if Spain is displaying non-democratic methods and voter suppression.

If you can, answer me as you would a child because I have a lot to learn on this.

Thank you.
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\\\"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.\\\"  Thomas Jefferson
Joanna
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« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2017, 01:14:56 am »

^I'll try my best dear flower but I need Alexandrine to check this because this is what I've gathered in the last 9 years of living here.

As I'm sure you know, Spain as a United country only came to be in 1492 when Ferdinand the King of Aragon (which amongst its territories included the Earldom of Barcelona) married Isabella the Queen of Castille&Leon (a while before both Castille and León were independent kingdoms but they were unified by Isabella's ancestors). After this marriage, Ferdinand conquered the Kingdom of Navarra (Basque Country belonged to this kingdom as far as my knowledge goes), later on the Catholic Kings conquered Granada and so with these unified kingdoms they built the Kingdom of Spain and with it one of the greatest empires the world has ever seen. But there have been many conflicts throughout history and all of them stem in my opinion from this: the inability to educate spanish without taking sides, without telling the story as if the children that are being educated aren't first and foremost spanish and creating a us versus them sort of mentality.

There are many difficulties that stem from long believed myths that these independents have spread, one is the idea that Catalonia was ever independent, it wasn't. It belonged to the kingdom of Aragón, it's true that they had their own public entities with some autonomic power but there was never such thing as the Kingdom of Catalonia.
Then there is the victimization of Catalonia as if it were the only region of one of Spain's territories that has suffered repression of its language, culture, tradition, autonomy, etc. It wasn't. The basques, the galicians, the navarres, the valencians, and the portuguese (when we were under their rule) have suffered from the same things. What is ridiculous is that people born in the XXth and the XXIth centuries speak of this matter as if they were born in the XVII century.

Another issue is the victimization about what they suffered because they supported the republican side on the Spanish Civil War. A million, people officialy (perhaps millions more realistically) spanish, died on this war, horrible things were done by both parties of this. Thousands suffered at the hands of the dictator Franco's regime and the attrocities commited. It's incredibly stupid, disrespectful of catalans to act as if they were the only one's in the whole of Spain to have suffered, or to even suggest that their suffering is greater.

Another issue is that there was the widespread belief that catalans contributed more to the PIB and have their taxes used by the Spanish government to invest in other communities. The first is a lie, Madrid is the autonomic community that most contributes to the PIB, the latter is an omission. While it's true that the same amount of taxes isn't returned to Catalonia as investment by the State in the Community they're conveniently leaving behind some things such as the fact that Madrid has even less of the money that it produces invested in the community. Another intersting thing is conveniently leaving behind the fact that many people, especially from the South went there to work while receiving miserable salaries, in something aking to modern slavery and another thing is how communities such as Andalucía and Extremadura and Galiza whose main economic activities are of the primary sector have their hands tied with all the production quotas and ratios imposed by the central government of Brussels in order for us to import therefore countributing to imbalance the comercial scale. Other thing they mention is how the spanish government is robbing them of what they perceive is their Money (conveniently forgetting that in the corruption scandals Catalans have also been involved).

But the biggest issues right now is that they seem to have trouble understanding two articles of the spanish constitution. One is the Second article, that says that Spain is indivisible, that the constitution is fundamented in this principle and that whilst the government recognizes the autonomy rights of the communities, Spain cannot be splitted and the communities have the duty of solidarity with each other. This is why the referendum is illegal. The other is the article is the 155, it expresses that the government is within it's rights to revoke the statute of autonomy if said autonomy is acting beyond its' powers and putting at risk the higher interest and stability of Spain.
Throughout history Spanish governants have invested a lot in Catalonia and while they received a lot from it as well, right now they are risking stability and unity of Spain because if they go forward with this, soon the Basque Country will want Independence, and who's to say that the galicians wouldn't want to as well? Then Spain, the country desintegrates. What is most feared is that somewhere along the road comes another deathly civil war. If Spain desintegrates it's a big deal for the EU as well, some are already mentioning this becoming a Federation of States as if we'd ever be the United States of Europe. (we don't have what it takes to become nothing even close to the USA) dontknow There's too many diferences, socially, economically, culturally, and political/historical background for that to ever be successful, it would only lead to unrest.

This whole subject is creating a division in society because the tendency is towards the division instead of celebrating the diferences of background, origin, language, etc. they share a big history together and the good they share is much and makes them the beautiful country they are but no, all this is making people only focus on the bad. There has been a lot of campaign to educate catalans and indoctrinate them in these independentism beliefs.

I hope I could be of any help and please feel free to ask anything  hug
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« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2017, 02:36:18 am »

^Whew!  Thank you so much for taking time to do this.   flower

It will take me time to sift through it and digest the info so let me get back to you.   But, I do have one question, does Catalonia have its own functioning givernment and if it separated would it be its own country or is it one now?  I’m confused, obviously.
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marion
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« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2017, 03:59:22 am »

Whatever the rights and wrongs of this situation,  the violence meted out by the police was totally out of proportion and can only fuel the determination of Catalans to persist in their quest fur independance.

I watched on Sky news, police go up to people who were not showing g any signs of violence  and hit them over the head with truncheons, pulled people down steps by their hair...it was horrific to watch.

One thing that struck me the re EU's response was the official comment that they had nothing to say as they don't in other countries internal affairs. Oh really, they seem to spend their time doing just that which is one of the reasons the UK voted to leave.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 04:01:04 am by marion » Logged
Joanna
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« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2017, 11:08:39 am »

^Sure, no problem, I see I've written PIB and I meant Gross Domestic Product obviously, sorry it was a bit late and I was a bit tired. I also left out some historical things because otherwise the text would be even longer.
Answering your question, no, Catalonia is not a country. Catalonia is one of the seventeen autonomous communities in which the spanish territory is divided, it is less than a State (if you think about the United states) because Spain is not a Federation of States and it's more than a simple region because each autonomous community has its own Statute of Community, a set of organic laws that establish the competences each autonomy assumes. These competences include some forms of self-administration, there are public institutions, there is a Parliament created by the Autonomy to follow this purpose, but it's always keeping in mind that they are created and designed to facilitate the government of the territory and it answers to the Government of Spain in Madrid. These statutes also allow some form of retribution and self-development as a way to make things more just and fair. Bear in mind that all autonomous communities have to obbey and proceed accordingly to the Constitution but each set of organic laws is different in each community. There are limits explicit on the Constitution to what each autonomic community can do in terms of self-government. Also, the organic laws I mentioned aren't the Penal Code nor the Civilian Code that obviously are the same for all of Spain. Basque country is the community that has more economical freedom than others and this is a form of them being more independente while remaining in Spain and it obviously is Madrid's answer to all of years of pressure and the ETA terror. So if Catalonia gets Independence it will be a new country. They are counting on the support of the EU but I don't think they find much of it.

The police spent hours being insulted to shouts of "murderers, assassins, sons of b****es, etc.", being spat on, shoved, having stones thrown at them, provoked. It was sent there to make catalans obey orders from the Government and from The Supreme Court. The National Police had to be sent there because the Autonomy's Police, the Mossos d'Esquarda didn't obey the government and didn't obey the Supreme Court and stood passively to the side. It's rebellion at its purest form. The authorities tried and asked the population to obey and follow the law but the answer was to keep insisting on breaking the law and insulting the police forces. While I agree that it was a harsh and extreme but if you can't make the law be obeyed through pacific ways then they have to resort to other means. Was it extreme and brutal? Yes. I also recognize that there are a lot of photos and footage that have been manipulated and photos of the violence exherted by the civilians on the police, of members of the police forces sustaining injuries that will never see the light of the day. 

EU's official comment is bordering on disloyalty and is incredibly shady. This is not internal affairs, this means deciding whether we're going to have one (Catalonia) or two (Catalonia and Basque country) or three (Catalonia, Basque Country and Galiza) new countries plus Spain in the Iberian peninsula and that is going to affect the European Union. Because mark my words, if catalans get Independence basques will want it too and perhaps even the galicians will as well. Then, members of the EU parliament are already trying to suggest Spain becoming a federation, what next? A European Federation? I don't want it to be a federation. If the EU starts to be that, I want a Iberian exit. I agree with you Marion that the time they spend acting like that is appalling and as if they only care about Germany and France is irking. I'm pro EU but things need to change with the utmost urgency.
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marion
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« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2017, 12:19:59 pm »

A federal Europe is exactly the aim of many

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10041817/Federal-Europe-will-be-a-reality-in-a-few-years-says-Jose-Manuel-Barroso.html
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Joanna
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« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2017, 10:05:48 pm »

Yes, it's the aim of many but it's not achievable until many things change, in my opinion. Until there is true cohesion, socially, educationally, etc.  Until the laws of what each country is allowed to produce and expand change, it's not going to happen. Thank you for the article, it gave me yet another reason to despise Durão Barroso. tehe

As a fellow portuguese, I'm ashamed of Durão Barroso and I'm really angry each time I recall this man abandoned his Prime Minister status at the time, and in a critical time for my country, a time of crisis  bignono and he did so without a problem of consciousness, leaving behind a serious of mistakes and corruption and acting as a lap dog serving the interests of a select few, so to me he is untrustworthy. He's also involved in a great financial scandals, so  nothing he can say helps his reputation in my eyes.

So back to topic, secessionists are convinced they will have a free pass to the European union. I doubt this will happen, if it does, it's a disrespect towards Spain, IMHO.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 10:08:05 pm by Joanna » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2017, 11:09:16 pm »

Thank you Joanna for your extremely comprehensive answer.  thankyou

I was going to ask you what PIB meant, but I don't have to now.  flower
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Joanna
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« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2017, 11:39:45 pm »

^ Sure, no need to thank me dear. flower I'm going to sit quiet in my corner and wait somebody says anything because I'm not this talkative generally and I'm feeling as if I'm dominating the conversation and I don't want that. Embarrassed Sorry if I sound obnoxious, it really wasn't my intention.
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« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2017, 01:32:16 pm »

BREAKING NEWS: Spanish prime minister set to impose direct rule over Catalonia as police prepare to arrest region's president and country reaches boiling point

    Spain's Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy this afternoon said he would curb the powers of the parliament of Catalonia
    In a press conference, Rajoy said his government had taken this unprecedented decision to restore the law
    Rajoy also proposed having central government ministers assume the powers of Catalan regional officials
    State Attorney General confirmed 'a complaint is being prepared for rebellion' against the President of the Generalitat of Catalonia, Carles Puigdemont
    The charge of rebellion could see Puigdemont face up to 30 years in prison if found guilty 


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5003425/Attorney-General-prepares-ARREST-Catalonia-s-president.html
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« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2017, 02:02:03 pm »

You weren’t obnoxious Joanna.  Hi

You see I came to this forum with preconceived notions, mostly ill informed and I genuinely wanted to know the answers.

So please accept this  flower in case I upset you. If I did, I’m truly sorry.  sorry

 thankyou
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« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2017, 08:58:38 pm »

Spanish Prime Minister dissolves Catalan parliament and calls a snap election as Madrid imposes direct rule on the region after it finally declared independence - amid growing fears for violence

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5023203/Catalonia-explode-violence-Madrid-imposes-rule.html#ixzz4wjy7gBbL
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Spanish prime minister sacks Catalan government after independence vote
Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy dissolved the parliament of Catalonia Friday, Reuters reported.
Earlier in the day Catalonia's parliament voted to establish an independent republic.
Rajoy said that elections will be held in Catalonia in December, according to Reuters.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/27/spanish-prime-minister-sacks-catalan-government-after-independence-vote.html
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 09:01:42 pm by Fly on the wall » Logged

NEVER *despise* correction,for those who correct you ,truly LOVE you .They are willing to displease you and possibly lose your friendship ,rather than see you destroyed. Those who *despise* you ,on the other hand ,will allow you to FAIL...because what do they care ?

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« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2017, 10:05:02 pm »

^^ Oh dear, you haven't upset me at all, I'm mostly shy and a bit insecure so perhaps that's why I'm always afraid of hurting someone's feelings. Thank you for your kindness flower

^A most sad day for Spain. I just want to cry. sob I'm afraid things are going downhill from now onwards. The government will need perhaps to exhert power by force and these vile people are so twisted they will spin the story and twist it in order to make them look like the victims. This infuriates me. I don't like confrontation and I *despise* shows of violence but one can't tolerate intolerance, deceit and lies and stand by still while they go on their merry way to desintegrate this wonderful beautiful country sauer
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