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LadyLaura
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« on: August 30, 2017, 07:55:15 pm »

Thank you  flower


That is sad about Granada...

Have you visited the Alhambra?
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Alexandrine
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« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2017, 08:04:15 pm »

Yes, twice! And the first time with school I didn't really like it. The second time I had more time to see it on my own way and still it's not as grand as you expect. I had read washington irving book and you kind of expect something that's not there anymore. It must had been incredible in its day but the things that remain are few and those are great but you sense how much has been lost.

A city to vist with the same type of feeling as Granada I would recommend Cordoba.

And now I realise I've made a huge off topic in this thread. Do you want a topic to discuss Spain royal places and things like that? I would love to answer any question!
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LadyLaura
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« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2017, 09:05:12 pm »

That was my fault, sorry

sure a thread for Spain would be great

 thankyou
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Alexandrine
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« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2017, 01:34:36 pm »

I would love to answer any question you have. But I still haven't visit the whole country.

Sometimes I've been asked if the royal palace in madrid is worth a visit. That depends if you haven't visited another royal palace in Europe. If you have it will probably disappoint you. It's very big but there are lot of things not shown. And compared to other palaces it's not very opulent. After all it suffered a civil war, a french invasion, years of semineglect....
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LadyLaura
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« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2017, 05:45:57 pm »

Thank Alexandrine for starting this thread, I hope it was no trouble.

Have you ever been to the Santa clara convent where Juana was imprisoned? I find her character so fascinating. She could have been queen of Spain in her own right, but first her father, then Carlos took it from her. I have also read that she was not "mad", perhaps a little melancholy and feisty, but certainly not mad.

I would love to see these places some day.

Phillip II who married Mary of England is also interesting, but very cruel it seems. Strange man  eating cookies
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Alexandrine
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« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2017, 10:26:55 pm »

It seems she lived in a part that was not well kept and was then later destroyed. I haven't been there but I know that as both Isabel and Juana lived around the area it has a lot of things that are related to them. I don't know if they are worth a visit though because they are usually not well kept. Lack of cash and the french during the war of independence didn't help.

My history professor at school said she was not mad only kept under control so her husband and father could have the power. Both Felipe and Juana were kings of castille. Felipe as a name was not used by the spanish royal family until the marriage between him and Juana. So Felipe II is second because Felipe was co-king with Juana.

She was probably not totally in her faculties or at least she was not as good as her mother to govern and deal with her father and husband. It was sad that being queen she was treated really badly by nearly everyone in her family. If she had no political power maybe she would have had a better life.

Felipe II is one of my fave spanish royals. He was sooo weird. For ex El Escorial has like the biggest collections of religious relics thanks to him. Although I think this is probably when the spanish royal family and spain in general went downhill. This is one of the most famous incidents in his reign https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_P%C3%A9rez_(statesman) it was used to start the "black legend".

At least I'm grateful he bought the bosch paintings and that they were kept in Spain. If only for the garden painting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieronymus_Bosch
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LadyLaura
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« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2017, 03:09:10 am »

Thnks for explaining that, I'm not very knowledgeable about old royal Spain, it's only now in the past couple of years more information is easier to access.

Phillip II sure was weird....also fascinating. I like reading his letter that he wrote to his daughters, they are almost poetic. A man of many contradictions.

Some day I would love to write a fictional account of Juana.

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Joanna
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« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2017, 03:43:43 pm »

I've never been to Granada but Córdoba is absolutely lovely sigh I'd like to know Madrid better and to visit the Zarzuela and I'd also like to visit El Escorial, I've been told it's impressive as well.

Poor Juana, in our history classes the teacher also said that she most certainly wasn't mad, she taught us all throughout history there were conspiracies and assassinations to seize power from certain individuals. Makes us think how much if any thing at all has changed from then to nowadays dontknow dontknow Another Juana I find fascinating to know about is Juana, la Beltraneja, most unfair what happened to her...I've been told by people who studied History that many  believe she was legitimate it was also a ploy to put Isabel on the throne  but I don't know much about this so dontknow
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Alexandrine
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« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2017, 06:54:18 pm »

I really like Cordoba I would love to visit more time than I did.

I also believe that the other Juana was probably legitimate. She really had bad luck to lose the war and then end up in a convent for all your life. If she had won maybe the kingdom of aragon would be the present portugal and portugal and spain would a country. Although before Isabel it would have been her brother but he died and Isabel was smart to win and marry Fernando.

What do you mean with zarzuela? The royal palace? Zarzuela is not open to visits unless you are going to an official event.

El Escorial really deserves a visit it may be one of the most curious places in spain.

Another curious royal related to Felipe II was his bastard brother Don Juan de Austria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Austria

His tomb at El escorial is a bit weird because his hands are full of rings. My history teacher said that no one knows why and said it could be from all the woman in love with him or something he use at battle  dontknow https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Tomb_of_Don_Juan_de_Austria

Related to Joanna's avatar as the woman was the wife of Carlos V there is an anecdote/weird story ---> http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/h126_Borgia.htm
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Kuei Fei
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« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2017, 12:48:26 am »

Royals often wore many rings and only the best. They had a wide array and so that is nothing unusual.

As for Juana, I believe her father coveted that power and I believe that she did have problems, but they were blown out of proportion.
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« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2017, 10:43:21 pm »

I thought I read in a some book that Enrique admitted to his wifes adultery and that the paternity of the Beltraneja Juana...I could be wrong, and that could have been a made up thing by later biographers anyway.

^ I think it was normal to wear so many rings, even little ones on the first joint of the fingers. They(medieval royals) made an art of being tacky  tehe
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« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2017, 04:23:00 am »

It wasn't being tacky, it was being sumptuous, to show off wealth and status; it was part of the projected image of royalty.
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« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2017, 09:09:04 am »

Yes, the royal palace, I thought the whole complex had that name. Thanks for the enlightenment!

^^I don't know if he did, oficially he made her his heir, maybe that was some confession on his deathbed or perhaps the courtiers of the time, decided to say he had said that so that would be used as an argument to Isabel's cause. dontknow
What is very interesting is that the heir of throne in Portugal was very set against his father and disagreed with the iberian unification so he did fight alongside his father Afonso V in Battle of Toro, the battle was indecisive from a militar standpoint as it's mentioned by several historians but many people with power were pulling the strings in Portugal so that it would never come to pass politically speaking, it put to rest Juana's cause. The Perfect Prince was shrewd enough for that.

I agree that the Iberian union would make some sense though flower Years later, Felipe II(I of Portugal) had it at the reach of his hand but he decided to keep Madrid as capital, and that was his mistake. I guess if he had made Lisboa the capital than we'd have been the most powerful Empire at the time for a while longer  (who knows, perhaps even today we'd be better off, however knowing how both our governments rule, it's probably wishful thinking?  easter-lol I fear in the end, we'd be having the same unification issues that Spain faces today with some of its autonomic communities such as Cataluña and País Basco, but on a bigger dimension. bignono On the other hand, it's interesting to imagine how diferent certain historic events would've come to pass, if we'd been the same country.  BFF2

Don Juan de Austria had an interesting life indeed!

I really love this topic BFF2


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LadyLaura
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« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2017, 06:25:20 pm »

It wasn't being tacky, it was being sumptuous, to show off wealth and status; it was part of the projected image of royalty.

yes, you are right, back then Kings and Queens were expected by all and sundry to look the part. In fact they had to, to be taken seriously and to be recognized and such. But also hundreds of years ago monarchies still had the aura of majesty and mystery about them. there is no such thing now. For instance it would be ridiculous QE decked herself out all the time. In fact people would even be offended possibly at such an display now. Its interesting to see how monarchies and how our perception of them has changed.

but there really was something magical about the good old days, when royals looked royal.
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« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2017, 10:26:14 pm »

In the past, royals served the nation and were supposed to open doors and get deals and there wasn't any angst about life being 'fair' and yearning for something that they were never going to have was in fact not done. These days royals refuse to grow up, much less pay any kind of price for their position. It's not like William or Harry make something of the role they're in and it's not like they even follow any rules, they just freestyle their way through life causing trouble for other people.
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« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2017, 03:00:52 am »

^^^

I meant to say hello to you Joanna, and forgot!  hello
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Joanna
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« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2017, 10:56:56 am »

Yes, in the past monarchs got to solely decide what was best for their country but this was in times of absolutism, which in my opinion was a despicable way of ruling. They did help their nation is someways but it was to their benefit to do so. I guess the concept the power of the state and that of the king was shady especially before the concept of a constitutional monarchy was established.

I believe that the complaining never changed, it seems to be inherent to their position in life. They've always wanted to do the bare minimum, mantain a lavish lifestyle, be praised for doing what is actually their duty and complain about what they belive is owed to them.
  laugh Nowadays, either they open their mouths to whine publicly because they think that makes them more relatable or the press and social media let's us know about the complaints they've issued in private. Times have changed and we don't tolerate what our ancestors used to tolerate. That being said, I love to know more about the monarchs of old and all the decisions (both good and bad) that they've made and to think about how that has shaped our history.

I meant to ask you, whom do you think were the best kings/queens of Spain and why?

Hello Lady Laura Hi flower!
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Alexandrine
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« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2017, 03:03:36 pm »

In Madrid city there is the royal palace that was built in the same place the previous alcazar was. (To know what an alcazar is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alc%C3%A1zar). This alcazar caught fire and many pictures were lost forever (thankfully many others were saved). Then the royal palace that can be visited today was built. This palace is used for state visits mainly. No one lives here.

Outside the city but close there is the following:

Then there is El Pardo. This is where Franco lived during his years as head of state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Palace_of_El_Pardo During state visits the guests stay here. It can also be visited.

Now when JC became prince of Spain and needed a house to live with Sofia, Franco gave them Zarzuela to live. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_Zarzuela This is where they still "live". Although probably JC does not spend time there and Sofia lives between London and Athens. After Felipe became of age they build him a big house next to his parent's house. This is where he still lives. Although he uses his father's office in the other palace at least for official events.

Zarzuela cannot be visited unless you are invited.
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LadyLaura
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« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2017, 06:01:41 pm »

When I was growing up I didnt even know that Spain still had a monarch  Embarrassed I learned it much later.

How much influence and power does the monarch actually have there? as much as Queen Elizabeth? I believe she exercises a lot more power behind the scenes than what we are told.
sorry for my ignorance, I'm still enjoying learning about royal Spain....I have ancestry from Spain  flower
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Alexandrine
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« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2017, 09:22:45 pm »

Well that's normal. I thought everyone lived in my region and couldn't understand why would you live anywhere else  laugh Embarrassed

You can check the constitution but to sum up his role is very limited in theory. Ours is a parliamentary democracy so he is the one who names the person who will form government but the parliament has to vote it. In theory he could choose whoever. But it is usually the leader from the most voted party. Everything he does afterwards must be according to the government choices. The figure of the monarch is more about how much respect he has. JC had much more leeway than Felipe.

Felipe really made a mess during the year we didn't have a government. http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20160122/rajoy-declina-propuesta-del-rey-someterse-investidura/1289042.shtml It was the first time someone declined after being asked by the king to present themselves to parliament to be voted. Then he asked the opposition party leader and he lost so another first for Felipe. JC could have probably resolved it before we had a second election.

Apart from that he is the head of the military (so Leonor will have to study in a military academy yes or yes but I really don't see her there... bored3).

They have little role but JC did made his machinations in the dark. He was smart to made the ones writing the constitution to include the monarchy there (it was considered to make a separate law) so harder to take them out. Also there had never been a law to regulate them in more detail another triumph from JC.

During my consitutional law course we didn't even study this articles as they are mainly not used and they are very short. The only with real application until now at least is the part where it involved the creation of government.

http://www.congreso.es/portal/page/portal/Congreso/Congreso/Hist_Normas/Norm/const_espa_texto_ingles_0.pdf
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