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Author Topic: Migrant Issue in EU  (Read 22312 times)
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Ariel
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« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2015, 02:19:57 pm »

Right there with you with the HE## NO.
The social benefits depend on the country. The biggest givers are Germany and then Austria. In Germany you get free housing, all expenses paid, and allowance for each member of your family, they also pay for your health benefits, so that you don't have to if you need to go to the hospital. A 3 person family costs Germany's taxpayers about 4000 euro a month. Multiply that by 800 000...

In other countries - the poorer ones, you get a one time compensation, or a few months of a very low cash payout, a crappy place to stay and that's it. after a few months you may move to another country, but who will really hire you? I can understand why they want to go for a country with better social service, but when you run for your life there is no place for cherry picking.
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Countess of Holland
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« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2015, 04:24:10 pm »

It's amazing how few facts are given in our "media" here in the US. 

Oh yes, I travel to the US quite often and have spend several summers roadtripping in the US for 3-4 weeks. And being a newsjunkie I read at least one newspaper a day, watch CNN in the evening and yet whenever I return to The Netherlands and read the pile of newspapers that has formed itself in my house, I find out I have missed at least a few big international non-US stories.

In this respect, the US press and people are very isolated. Years ago I was visiting Gettysburg and I met an American family and they were amazed that the American Civil War was discussed in detail during history lessons on Dutch highschools 'because it didn't concern you'. So the isolated vision already starts in schools I think.
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windsor2
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« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2015, 12:30:22 am »

Revealed: How the five wealthiest Gulf Nations have so far refused to take a single Syrian refugee
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3222405/How-six-wealthiest-Gulf-Nations-refused-single-Syrian-refugee.html

What's up with that?

n Cameron's defense, I don't believe that he's xenophobe. England's a small country and can't afford to take in a whole load of migrants when there's a strain on the system to look after it's own citizens. Also, I imaginge that he'd want to have a say in who he can let into the country and not have other countries tell him how many he can let in. Besides, he'd already opted out of an agreement that says he'll not have to take any migrants in to the country. Right now, the Muslem's have already changed the landscape in London with their mosques, women in their ridiculous black berka's, them telling British people to not drink in public and not to have integrated gyms, etc. It's beyond ridiculous that they're in another country and making demands on the British public instead of chilling and being grateful that they're not in a war zone somewhere. I'm sorry if it's offensive, but they do threaten the way of life in Christian countries.  
The mistake now is not to have complete control of the borders in each country of the EU. Nothing good will come out of this lot invading other countries and then demand this and that. Merkell made a huge mistake in saying that she'll take a lot in because she's just given an insentive to have a whole lot more to make the journey to Germany. I agree that the honest one's that are fleeing persecution should get the help they need and the rest should be shipped back to the Middle East to fight for their country. I'm gettting a hard heart about this because of the use of the poor dead baby to garner sympathy when what it should've done was to get the politicians to act and close all borders tight and make it very difficult to have the migrants want to risk their lives to leave Turkey where this poor chaps father was living for a few years in peace and health. Now, I'm afraid that we'll be seeing or hearing about more dead babies washing ashore now.
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« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2015, 04:54:05 am »

for they boy I blame the father, not Turkey. especially in arab culture - the man provides for the family. he didn't protect them, he put them in danger.
another father who put his entire family in danger is a guy who threw his wife and baby on the railway because he wanted to go to Austrian and did not want to get registered in Hungary. another father who is to blame is - on the railway station in Romania a woman gave birth while waiting for the train.  her husband didn't get her to the hospital because he wanted to get registered in Germany, not Romania.
^very good article. the countries in question are ruled by sunni sheihks. i would expect their financial help to isis instead of helping the muslims with inferior faith than theirs ... whose faith they are helping to uprooth
^we all have Cameron's concerns. christian Europe is invaded by muslims who make bebies which we work to support financially through the social and health taxes.
burkas are forbiden in most EU countries. scafs are not but burkas .. if I see someone in black from head to toe in EU, I'll call the police, I swear.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 05:01:38 am by Ariel » Logged
gingerboy24
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« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2015, 12:12:23 pm »

An article I read this morning, quite interesting.  One of the commenters at the end said this, and I am sorry but I do agree, I think the parents took the risk, their decison, and it back fired. 

The Ugandan asians were genuine refugees they added to the fabric of society and generally have returned to Uganda once it became safe for them to do so, there was not any doubt that the asians were being annihilated by the amin government in what is called ethnic cleansing. The vast majority of the present flow of migrants are not fleeing from danger in fact many are happy to leave their families, wife and children behind. The present fuss being made about a baby dying because his parents were desperate to escape war torn Syria is in fact a sham. The Family had been living in Turkey for three years and had been refused admission to Canada, the Father needed dental treatment and wanted to get it free, this is not a desperate family running from oppression it is a family that would take wha it could get, in fact they returned to Turkey for the funerals in a muslim country, so what exactly were they fleeing ?


https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2015/09/05/migrant-refugees-into-the-eu-the-complexity-spin-agendas-and-hypocrisy-behind-the-pictures/
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marion
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« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2015, 12:38:58 pm »

ITA windsor2 and I'm grateful to you for standing up for the UK.  We have already given nearly £1billion for Syrian refugees, more than Germany, Netherlands, France, Italy, Hungary, Austria and Poland combined.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCYQqQIwAGoVChMIu4Co2OLfxwIVYYHbCh16PgL9&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews%2Farticle-3222250%2FHow-Britain-given-aid-refugees-Germany-Netherlands-France-Italy-Hungary-Austria-Poland-COMBINED.html&usg=AFQjCNFfvPWAKTiL1ixf63a0qQZ9gdM0tw
 
We are not racists as a nation in the UK but we already have an overload of immigrants and plenty of places are no-go areas to non -whites - even the police won't enter certain areas.  Our infrastructure is already suffering hugely as a result of massive immigration over the last few years and, while I would be willing to see us take genuine refugees fleeing atrocities, for  me too many are illegal immigrants - we have enough of those already thank you very much.   I am tired of seeing the pic of the dead child used as propaganda, talk about milking it to the end.  I'm sorry if anyone thanks I sound heartless, but the parents of that child made the decision to flee, knowing the risks so the father should take some responsibilty for their fate.

What about our pensioners, some who cannot afford to put the heating on during the winter, families struggling to make ends meet.  Immigrants get a minimum of double per month what the pensioners are given, and yet they have contributed all their lives - illegal immigrants give nothing back, they take, take and take again. We are in an economic crisis of our own and already have enough illegal immigrants here.


The vast majority of the present flow of migrants are not fleeing from danger,  in fact many are happy to leave their families, wives and children behind. The present fuss being made about a baby dying because his parents were desperate to escape war torn Syria is in fact a sham. The father returned to Syria for the funerals so what exactly were they fleeing from ?  Can anyone seriously think Jews returned to Germany between 1939-1945 to bury their loved ones?

The links below make for interesting reading


http://counterjihadreport.com/2015/09/04/the-hijrah-into-europe/

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/260020/syrian-refugee-crisis-not-our-problem-daniel-greenfield
https://www.google.co.uk/url?
sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCEQFjAAahUKEwiZkO6p5d_HAhWObtsKHQzBC3k&url=https%3A%2F%2Fhat4uk.wordpress.com%2F2015%2F09%2F05%2Fmigrant-refugees-into-the-eu-the-complexity-spin-agendas-and-hypocrisy-behind-the-pictures%2F&usg=AFQjCNHR2Y58J3GxK-uNxz5kxMtWoCcJTw&bvm=bv.102022582,d.ZGU


http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/260025/why-did-oil-rich-arab-countries-abandon-muslim-nonie-darwish



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gingerboy24
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« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2015, 12:47:20 pm »

Excellent posts ladies, could not agree more.  The UK does its fair share, and more, so why should we feel we have to accept even more illegal immigrants.  I feel very sad for the children who died, but to use them as propaganda is wrong on every level, especially when you take into account the family history, indeed, why did they go back for a funeral.  I know family are important, but if a relative has died, and you could jeopardise the lives of your own and your family to go back for a funeral, then that was the father´s decision, he also made the decision to take the risk of leaving again, and he of all people should have known the risks were high.  I do not feel sorry for him, not one bit, I feel sorry for his dead wife and two children.  To use this situation, of his making, to get the UK to take in even more illegal immigrants is shameless, outrageous and way out of order in every respect.  The UK will sink soon.  And as Marion said, what about our pensioners, our homeless people, UK children who live from food and clothing banks, parents living in sub standard accommodation barely keeping body and soul together, and they get less from the government than the illegal immigrants.  Do the UK government think this is acceptable to us, that the sight of a little boy, dead because of decisions his father took, nobody else, is going to soften everyone.  It does not soften me, I am all for helping others, but this is a step too far when the UK government are prepared to do more for illegal immigrants than the British people.
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marion
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« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2015, 01:57:47 pm »

^ goodpost
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« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2015, 02:10:08 pm »

 Many scathing comments everywhere re people wanting to take the immigrants in even saying they will put their own children to sleep on mattresses.  Some examples below-:
-----
'I doubt any with children will even be allowed to take them in. They would have to be CRB checked for a start and there are few families mostly single young men. They'll end up with a couple of former Eritrean boy soldiers. Social services should start wondering about people who are prepared to risk the safety of their own children for the sake of this virtue signalling.
An elderly couple in Italy were found with their throats cut thanks to their generosity towards some African youth and a similar case in France.'
-----
Another:-

 It's their shocking sense of self-entitlement that I find unacceptable. Demanding human rights etc and shoving small children to the front of the confrontation lines.
Last night the local BBC was gushing about support groups springing up and showed them collecting second hand clothes and blankets. I very much doubt this lot will want old clothes they have the latest trainers, designer duds and iPhones.
--------
' I'm wondering how they will square the circle giving homes to immigrants and whilst throwing  out those with an extra bedroom like the disabled, how they will explain to those on the housing lists how they won't get a house, plus the extras in the queues for NHS etc etc'
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« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2015, 02:45:13 pm »

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/09/05/desperate-syrian-refugees-take-arctic-route-to-europe/?intcmp=hplnws

Quote
After several failed attempts to reach Europe from Turkey, a 31-year-old Syrian asylum seeker found refuge in Norway’s capital last week after riding a bicycle across Russia's Arctic border with Norway.


Quote
Though 2,300 miles north of Syria and often freezing cold, the border between Russia and Norway is an attractive alternate route, providing a direct gateway into the Schengen Area, within which there are no border controls. Although Norway isn’t a European Union member, it is part of the visa-free zone.

The more than 150 migrants recorded at Norway's Storskog border post so far this year represent a fraction of the estimated half-million people who have applied for asylum in Europe during the period. But Norwegian authorities say the Arctic flow is growing fast as Syrians and other migrants appear to be sharing the tip.

"Some have discovered a fast track to Europe," said Hans Møllebakken, chief of the police station guarding the Norwegian side of the border with Russia.


Ok, so now I need you guys again.  The Schengen area has always confused me especially if I ever need to be in Europe for longer than the allowed 90 days.  And why do some countries require a visa and some don't? 

The other issue which is staring me right in the face is that, overall, these refugees are young and quite healthy which makes a certain amount of sense.  The elderly or infirm couldn't withstand the strain but it also says that they are capable of working on their own country and with enough support could stand and fight.  Norway should be quite worried.  The cold may not be enough of a deterrent.  And good luck Canada.  I hear a lot of people somehow getting in there.

We, in the US, knowing our history and patterns, will bring out the hankies and not only send money but let people in.  I could smack Cameron upside the head for making a vague yet emotional response to this.  It's time for a hard line stance as unpopular and unfeeling as that sounds.  A lot of this smells like Sea World, to me and I agree, what responsible parent puts their child in danger like that?  It's not not not my responsibility as much as we'd like things to be the way they were.  They say they "want a better life" but in fact, and I've seen it here in the States time and time again, they want "my way of life at MY cost".  Now, if they have an important contribution to make to the visiting country, a temporary visa should be allowed for a certain amount of time until they prove themselves worthy of citizenship.  But, to simply allow people in without any fact checking is so dangerous I dare not think about it. 
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« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2015, 03:17:47 pm »

^
Most of those irresponsible migrants are greedy. They hear stories about the wealthy EU countries and believe that money grows on trees. Instead of being grateful that they escaped the war zone, they are greedy and risk their lives in order to get to a wealthy country. In Germany many of the shelters are located in Eastern Germany, an area where racism is prevalent. Shelters are being attacked or even burned down. Those greedy migrants seem to be deluded.
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marion
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« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2015, 03:55:53 pm »

^^@Yooper - We have already had many cases of immigrants who apply and fail to get  British citizenship but cannot be deported because of the Human Rights Act - even those that commit serious crimes -  so in theory a temporary visa is a good idea but in practice it wouldn't work. Some migrants work hard when they get to the UK because they see the life that can be enjoyed for a bit of effort but others just expect it to be handed to them on a plate and when it isn't they turn to thieving/burglary.

As for the  Schengen agreement - is this any help??

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCYQFjABahUKEwiQsJvYkuDHAhXsatsKHY-dAJE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.itv.com%2Fnews%2F2015-09-01%2Fwhat-is-the-schengen-agreement-and-does-europes-migrant-crisis-put-it-at-risk%2F&usg=AFQjCNGgR_evkOo-9NGcEIANsSfc9uzu0g


It is ridiculous that although the UK is not signed up to the  Schengen agreement Angela Merkel is demanding we take refugees as we are part of the EU
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« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2015, 04:39:40 pm »

^ and ^^ Thank you!  I'm learning so much and how true that US news/media is so agenda-driven and isolated and, more often than not, does no real research nor provides us with the realities from the point of view of the other side.  Some of my friends who don't travel simply do not understand when I try to share what's really going on.  They just think about "that poor little boy" and "we must help" without thinking about the consequences that you all face. 

We, too, have sanctuary cities and just recently a murderer killed somebody in northern California who should've been booted out.  But, California.  Oy. They're also wanting to let convicts get free trans operations so that's another fight for another day.

^Many thanks for the Schengen info.  I'll wade through it and bug if I still don't get it.  I didn't know, for instance, that the UK is not part of it and, yeah, why should Merkel be dictating to them?  That makes no sense at all.

This isn't going to get any prettier.  And I'd also like to know what Russia's stance is.  They're allowing people to migrate through but are not allowing settlement.  is that right?
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« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2015, 06:56:00 pm »

^^Oy yoy yoy, that Schengen Agreement thingy has my head spinning.  I understand it from the point of view when I travel in Europe.  For instance, I'm told that if I want to extend my 90 days I simply have to exit the Schengen areas and stay in a non-Schengen area for a period of time (I forget how long but it's long I think) and then go back and it somehow works.  I've never done it so I'm speaking undoubtedly wrong about this.

But, the information was quite helpful and it makes sense for those who already live in Europe not to have to go through border control when they travel so frequently from country to country just as it would be very difficult here in the US to have to do that from state to state.

However, I would think, and it's another question, that anyone from outside the EU would not fall under these circumstances if they have:  fake passports, no passports at all, and clearly identify as a refugee.  Does the Schengen thing then fall into a different customs department?  For instance, when I enter France, my hotel, lodging, whatever stamps my passport and lists all the information on it before I can even get into my room or out of the airport.  How in the world does somebody do this without proper documents.  A fake US passport would be impossible to pass off.  Trust me.  Impossible.  Which is why we are told to do something that I really can't say when we are in Europe to make sure that nobody steals our passports. Although, now it's pretty stupid because we have fingerprints in the chip and if they don't match up when you hit a border, you're probably never seen again.  US Agents swoop in.  I've seen it happen in Munich.

Where on earth is Akasha?huh  She'd be a wealth of info being/working in Security in Belgium.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 06:59:36 pm by YooperModerator » Logged


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Ariel
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« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2015, 07:51:44 pm »

Turkey is not stopping the refugees. I believe that Russia is not stopping them too. Greece, Italy and Hungary are not stopping the immigrants ... but they do not want to stay in these countries. they want to go to the promised land... Germany. 'running for their life' doesn't seem believable when they are picky and choosy where they want to go. these are economic immigrants not really refugees.

why they behave as if we have to take care of them, have to accept them, and if we don't  ... they'll risk their lives to 'prove' us guilty of not doing what they, the aliens tell us to. 

sorry, ladies, but for me Cameron is like W&K. he doesn't want to pinch in for Greece, doesn't want to accept refugees, always a contra to Angela, threatening to leave the EU... but init for the perks. he talks fair things about the crisis, but the depletion of pensions and social security funds is a problem of all countries with refugees. just think of Greece - they went bankrupt and yet, they take care of hundreds of refugees... and they've been paying their pensioners with borrowed money for years now. it's about solidarity.

going back to the father .. Canada refused visa to this family even though he has family there. sorry, but that's strange.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 08:01:49 pm by Ariel » Logged
marion
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« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2015, 08:24:57 pm »

Greece has been paying for everything with borrowed money for years which is one of the reasons they are in such a mess. They do not have proper systems in place for tax collection to ensure everyone pays what they are supposed to so tax evasion  is a major problem.  They have had to take care of the refugees because they turned up on their shores - it was certainly not by choice that Greece paid for them and they have been given EU funds to help with this

Cameron is not simply threatening to leave the EU - it is a real possibility as we will have a chance to vote in the  referendum next year and many want to leave- some talk of the benefits we get from trading with Europe but China and Asia are the emerging markets  and our membership of EU is costing us  £33 million per DAY, True our farmers get some rebates and some money is spent on some deprived areas of the country but if we weren't paying EU membership we could easily do without the rebates and pay for the deprived areas etc ourselves  

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC0QFjACahUKEwjAzvu4zeDHAhXF1RoKHdYJAfM&url=https%3A%2F%2Ffullfact.org%2Feconomy%2Fcost_eu_membership_gross_net_contribution-30887&usg=AFQjCNFSGUbbnO6jfSdrU3cTFUZWyJmdTA

When we had the original referendum to decide whether or not  to join what was then the Common Market we were told it was a trade agreement and it would benefit us all as we would all be in it together esp if there were world shortages etc.  Many didn't believe that and said the real aim long-term was for a Federal Europe which has turned out to be the case with Germany wanting to be a dominant player. They failed in 2 world wars to dominate Europe but are now succeeding by other means.  Most of our laws can be overturned by unelected beurocrats so that does rather make a mockery of our so-called democracy and the decisions of our courts are also often over-turned by European courts, including deporting of foreign nationals who have committed serious crimes.

As for Russia - I should think Putin is laughing at the mess Europe is in

Back to the migrant issue - at a time when the heads of our security services are saying they are over-stretched already why oh why is Cameron allowing more people to come in unchecked - terrorists could easily mask as refugees and may of the Muslim immigrants *despise* our way of life and have vowed to make this an Islamic state with Sharia law.  Quite simply, we don't know who we are allowing into the UK and no-one in authority seems to care because they are all prisoners to PC and to misplaced compassion

Apols Yooper for going OT rather - soon we will undoubtedly need a thread for UK/EU, esp when the referendum is coming up!!!
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 08:29:37 pm by marion » Logged
Ariel
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« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2015, 08:38:01 pm »

but until UK is in EU, UK needs to behave as part of the EU and accept refugees just like the rest of the countries. besides - the refugees will most likely want to move to Germany anyway.
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« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2015, 09:19:11 pm »

Sadly I think there is as many people inside the UK who want out as people in other parts of the EU who wants them out.

^^Oy yoy yoy, that Schengen Agreement thingy has my head spinning.  I understand it from the point of view when I travel in Europe.  For instance, I'm told that if I want to extend my 90 days I simply have to exit the Schengen areas and stay in a non-Schengen area for a period of time (I forget how long but it's long I think) and then go back and it somehow works.  I've never done it so I'm speaking undoubtedly wrong about this.

But, the information was quite helpful and it makes sense for those who already live in Europe not to have to go through border control when they travel so frequently from country to country just as it would be very difficult here in the US to have to do that from state to state.

However, I would think, and it's another question, that anyone from outside the EU would not fall under these circumstances if they have:  fake passports, no passports at all, and clearly identify as a refugee.  Does the Schengen thing then fall into a different customs department?  For instance, when I enter France, my hotel, lodging, whatever stamps my passport and lists all the information on it before I can even get into my room or out of the airport.  How in the world does somebody do this without proper documents.  A fake US passport would be impossible to pass off.  Trust me.  Impossible.  Which is why we are told to do something that I really can't say when we are in Europe to make sure that nobody steals our passports. Although, now it's pretty stupid because we have fingerprints in the chip and if they don't match up when you hit a border, you're probably never seen again.  US Agents swoop in.  I've seen it happen in Munich.

Where on earth is Akasha?huh  She'd be a wealth of info being/working in Security in Belgium.

Imagine that all the Schengen area (which does include more than EU countries to make it a bit more difficult) is one big country like the US. So when you travel to the US you have x days as a tourist and then you have to leave. Well the example you are using about the 90 days and having to leave the schengen area is the same.

Of course this works if you enter the legal way. If you don't have your papers and are illegaly in a country it depends on their laws but in general they are put in controlled houses until they are able to send them home again. But the whole process is expensive and the country of origin has to accept them which makes the whole thing more difficult.

Without papers you can't do nearly anything in Europe.
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« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2015, 10:20:43 pm »

^Thanks, Alex.  Is it sort of more like if 45 of our states were asking for papers but 5 didn't?  So, in that case, New York who would be a border patrol state would be able to tell California, a potential non border patrol state, who to take in - kinda what Merkel is doing?  Am I making any sense?  Doubt it.

If I look at the Schengen thing like our 50 states, it's kind of the same.  You have a certain amount of time to establish residency.  Then you are subject to that state's tax rate, income tax laws (some have state sales tax, some don't.  some have prop taxes, some don't).  But, no US citizen can be a resident of two states at once.  If you own two homes in separate states you have to prove that you are in one of them more than 6 months.  It's a big deal.  Is it kind of the same thing in Europe?  Am I on the right track?

BUT, if you are an illegal entering the US, then you fall under federal law which is an entirely different thing.  If you don't have a passport, you go into detention.  If you have a passport then you have to go through hoops of fire, have a social services agent, be monitored and so on.  That's the ideal.  Many many thousands come in through tunnels or even on surf boards and just work under the radar for cash and send it back home to either Mexico or any Central American country.  It's a huge huge huge mess.
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« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2015, 10:25:25 pm »

I also saw this comment, pretty valid points.

"Has Cameron consulted with the DG of MI5 and MI6 or has he just bowed down to Merkel once again?  I suspect the latter!  Andrew Parker, the DG of MI5, has said repeatedly that our intelligence services are stretched to the limit in preventing terrorist outrages in London and other parts of the UK, but we are going to allow unchecked Syrians and God knows who else in this country. The stupidity beggars belief."
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