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Author Topic: Migrant Issue in EU  (Read 22514 times)
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YooperModerator
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« on: September 03, 2015, 12:39:19 pm »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34128263

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Hundreds of migrants are in a stand-off with police for a second night outside a Budapest railway station.
Earlier, scuffles broke out between the two sides as frustration among migrants boiled over outside Keleti station.
Many of the migrants have tickets and are insisting they be allowed to travel on to Germany and other countries, but Hungary says it is enforcing EU rules.
Meanwhile, Germany, Italy and France have called for "fair distribution" of refugees throughout the EU.

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Under an EU rule known as the Dublin Regulation, refugees should seek asylum in the first EU country they enter.
But this has proved hard to uphold, with border countries such as Hungary, Italy and Greece saying they cannot cope with the numbers. All three are members of the borderless Schengen Area.
In another development, spot checks on the border between Italy and Austria have been intensified following a request from Germany, Italian officials said.

Input from those in Europe extremely welcome.  We're watching this with high interest in the US.  Not that what we think matters but it would be helpful to hear how you all feel about this crisis.
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Ariel
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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2015, 02:11:24 pm »

Yooper, thank you so much for raising this topic. It is very frustrating situation. First of all -  most migrants:  68% are men between  15 and  45. Men who should stay and defend their country. Second -  why don't they go to seek asylum in Saudi or UAE. This is arabic problem not EU problem. Thwy should go to a muslim country, not make a geo lolitical crisis. If I go to Saudi - will someone give me house and monwy? no. will they built a church for me ? no. why are these people coming to Europe and not Saudi or Kuwait or UAE? They live off social services but theyare not poor.  Some near me drive an ML. I can't afford an ML ...
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YooperModerator
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« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2015, 03:17:08 pm »

^Thank you for the input.  We here in the States have similar issues but that's not what this thread is all about but I can say it's a very charged issue here as well.  Look up Tourist Babies some time.

What I did see when in Europe is that there's, well, in France especially, a deep fight for keeping their cultural identity intact as much as possible and I saw the beginnings of some real racial issues/hatred because of the very things you mentioned.  My understanding is that the Eu laws state that the first country you enter is where you have to start filling out paperwork and so on so I'm confused as to how these folks are getting (well, today they're not getting on any trains) on trains and going anywhere they have a mind to. 

What's Merkel's stance on this?  Germany, I see, is getting four times the amount of immigrants or migrants in the last year.  So, it's a huge issue that I don't know if people were either not prepared for or didn't see coming.   
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Ariel
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« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2015, 06:35:34 pm »

the issue is - not prepared. technically, yes - the migrants need to be registered in the first country that they enter. but when they register in that country they become part of its social services - they need to be provided shelter, food and money to live for about a year. That's why the migrants want to go so desperately to West Europe. Germany offers the most benefits. Why migrants want to go to UK I don't know. UK people won't like foreigners and especially foreigners of color. Merkel is currently called Germany's mom because she's accepting migrants. Which is commendable. I fully support helping people in need. In my country there is organization where you can donate food for those in need. And Oman 's sultanate is helping them out financially.

But I believe that this is a problem between Shia and Sunni muslims and should be contained within this part of the world. This is their war not ours. All the Sunni muslims who donot want to be ISIS militants should escape to a Sunni country, all Shiite muslims who are slaughtered by the stupid Sunny fanatics, should escape to a country where shia's can live... why are they not going to Iran, I don't know..

Migrants flooding Europe is a big issues - it inspires the terrorists to expand their "cause" to killing christians, Western Europe becomes target. The migrants dry up our social security and we are not Saudi or Kuwait. We can't afford to adopt an entire country without leaving our own sick and elderly in misery. And my personal problem is - their integration. We'll be forced to build mosks for them, have arabic schools for them, arabic TV stations for them, equal rights of employment for them. And I don't want that. Sorry. I don't. It's not like we made them come to EU or shipped them here against their will. They are invading us.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 06:43:33 pm by Ariel » Logged
Countess of Holland
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« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2015, 07:03:45 pm »

The EU asylum policy is clear...no shopping around. So refugees need to ask asylum the moment they enter the EU in the country of entrance. And after they have done so, they can only move to other EU-countries with approval of that receiving country. So they can't ask for asylum in Greece, then move to Bulgaria, Hungary and Germany and do the same thing in these countries.

As most refugees come from the Middle East or north-Africa, the biggest influx of refugees is in countries that already face tough circumstances. Think Spain, Greece and Italy. But the other Baltic States and Hungary aren't very wealthy either.
And so people try to get to Germany. Sometimes for understandable reasons; they have relatives living in that country for example. And letting them live with relatives will relieve some of the burden for the receiving country. In cultures like the Syrian society, help to relatives, brothers, cousins etc, is an essential part after all.

As for why they come and should we let them enter, I am ambivalent. I feel that we, as humans, have an obligation to help those in need. And the Syrian refugees are indeed people in desperate need. Especially since a big chunk of them are not muslims, but Christians (some 30% of the people in Syria are Christians- Eastern Orthodox). So I can understand why they don't travel to Saudi Arabia or the United Arabic Emirates. Especially when keeping in mind these countries track-records when it comes to human rights and how they treat foreign workers. And as Christians, their safety in those countries is hardly secure.

What irks me however is their need to travel to other countries, wealthier countries, in the EU. If they are truly refugees who have fled the possibility of persecution, I would think they don't mind what country they end up in, as long as they are safe. And keep in mind that even though countries like Rumania or Hungary are poor for EU-standards, their wealth is about the same as that of Syria.

And there is of course a danger that some refugees are not true refugees but a kind of fifth column, refugees who are extremists themselves and will use their entrance to the EU to rally more people for the fight in Syria. Not to mention to plan attacks in Europe. Just today the Dutch army shook on its foundation when it turned out there are strong signs that a sergeant of the Dutch Royal Air Force joined IS in Syria. This is a kind of nightmare scenario and countries are doing all they can to fight extremism. And that won't be very effective when extremists are coming in disguised as Syrian refugees.

It is a massive problem, on top of a humanitarian disaster. And how to solve it? I just don't know.
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Ariel
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« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2015, 07:39:00 pm »

Syrian christians are out of the question. they are chased after and killed in this country, so - they are welcome any time.
but most (not all) refugees are picky. they want to chose which country they want to become citizen. and I believe that those who have relatives who can help them in Germany, Austria, France or UK (the targeted countries) can travel for those countries as soon as they obtain a refugee statute. they'll only have to renounce the social benefits of the country they are in and for this reason it wouldn't matter where they enter the EU. also - if a refugee is not a refugee? a migrant entering an EU county should be inspected. Europe opening its doors to masses of migrants is a huge security thread. terrorists might waltz in Europe through wide open doors. how would the police know if a migrant is running from Syria or recruiting for ISIS?   
God bless the people in need, may they find the helpful people with good hearts when they need them.
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« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2015, 08:12:30 pm »

Thank you for all the very valuable insights into this.  It's such a huge issue and even Merkel is now questioning how to really handle this effectively.  It's impossible to filter all of the bad apples and I agree that those in need are deserving of help but I lean more towards an international rather than country-driven support network.  And as nice as it is of the Icelanders to take in people into their homes, I see a lot of problems there.  Who are they?  How long will they stay?  Are they going to bring disease?  Are they ill?  What are the safety precautions put in place?  Are there social workers assigned to each individual? I wouldn't do it.  And it's because I have done it.  Short version:  We took in two refugees from Somalia.  Cleaned us out and we never saw them again.

In addition, it's hard to put away a certain ingrained belief that if you love your country you fight for it, you don't run away.  Perhaps that's an American or Nationalist way of thinking but it happens to be how I feel about some of these people who could quite easily join the military and use our weapons that we paid for to hold onto their country instead of just going where the pot has more gold.

I dunno.  I certainly have no answers for this but if nothing else, there has to be some kind of paper trail somewhere for these people.  Right now, it's a mad house.  I have to be finger printed and eye scanned when I enter the US, for instance, upon returning from any trip abroad.  To get a passport now in the States isn't as easy as it used to be.  It's not awful but when you do get it, it's littered with a whole bunch of warnings about security and there's a chip in the front of it that has all of my data.  And that's as it should be.  Right now, our State Dept is flooded with people wanting US passports.  You used to be able to get one in a few weeks.  Not so much now.  Quite a waiting period.  It was for me this time around anyhow.

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Ariel
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« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2015, 08:41:47 pm »

beggars can't be choosy and these people are choosy. i disapprove! look at this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3220673/All-aboard-migrant-express-Germany-Chaos-Budapest-police-reopen-station-following-two-day-stand-hundreds-immediately-swarm-trains.html

i blame the migrants who decided that they should get the good life in Western Europe. our borders are too easy to cross. we need tighter security. like in US.

i also point finger at David Cameron - chauvinistic, xenophobic pig. all Europe is accepting migrants - only UK doesn't. Greece went bankrupt, was flooded with migrants but they deal with it. why UK won't accept them? why? they spend millions on the two laziest people in the world - W&K but they can't accept refugees. Merkel should put him in his place.

it's not only an american thing to fight for your country and for a better future for your family. you don't run away and make a fit if you don't smuggle yourself in Austria.

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« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2015, 09:26:40 pm »

^I couldn't agree more with you about the UK.  I checked and I would be unable to get a working permit in England; not enough points.  And I'm a working professional, can speak english, am educated, and so on but I'm over 28 years old which is a lot of points.  Very very restrictive.

But, perhaps other countries should tighten things up as well and take on some of the hard lines that England does?  Would that be a way to go?  All I foresee is a lot of violence.

And I certainly didn't mean that only Americans would fight for their country.  Many others have done so but these people seem, to us, as quitters in many ways especially when we've gone in, in many cases, to help them and have funded their causes.  It's quite frustrating from our end.  But, then, we have our own immigration issues as well.

Shouldn't you have to be able to prove that you are self-sustaining to be able to enter a country?  That's one area I don't understand.  A skill, education, a job, money in the bank enough for at least a month or so.  Something!  And definitely major strict entry controls.  Ours are getting very tough and I predict much much tougher after our elections next year.

So, the way it is now, those people coming in through Hungary are being processed?  And then they can move on to other countries?  Is that how it works?  Crazy. 
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Ariel
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« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2015, 10:15:55 pm »

yes, but they can't claim the other country's social benefits - only those of the country in which they are registered.
another problem with those migrants is that they show up on your shore and you can't really extradite them back t where they came from. they risk their lives, they'll die on your border if they have to, if you are not welcoming enough they'll go to the media with a tell all story. i'm afraid that many come here to take. and when we can't cope financially - what will they do. Syria's a country with 21 mil people - most EU countries are times smaller than that. where are we going to put those people, how are we going to feed them. i'm just worried
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« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2015, 10:31:12 pm »

^I don't understand that clearly.  What's the country where they are "registered"?  Their first point of entry? 

You and many millions of others have every right to be worried and something must be done.  Immediately if not sooner.  If not, we're looking at a cultural war the likes of which we haven't seen on this planet.  Welcome to our world, really.  We've lost jobs, safety, our population is out of control and we have a million a day trying to get into the States.  (I think that's right - or close to it).  And english is not required.  That's been a big help.  Try taking a cab in NYC some time.  You have to write the address down and hand it to the driver usually. 

ANYway, as for the EU, it's probably time for some major and cold-hearted laws to be established but it's probably a tad late for some of the damage. Make it as difficult as you can I guess. 

And where is the International Red Cross in all of this?  Why does it fall to one entry country to handle all of the feeding/clothing/water/shelter?  I don't get it. 

It scares me because I sense another War in the making.  These countries that are making it he## on earth for their people need to be held accountable.
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« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2015, 10:47:05 pm »

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/tens-thousands-demand-uk-takes-refugees-150903123710519.html

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The UK is to accept thousands more refugees from camps based on the Syrian border following criticism that it has not been doing its share, British newspapers are reporting.

The reports said government officials were on Thursday working on a plan to bring in thousands more people, but not those already in Europe.

The Guardian reported that British Prime Minister David Cameron did not want to encourage more people to make the perilous journey across the Mediterranean Sea to reach the UK.

The move comes amid pressure on the British government from members of the public to end the refugee crisis that has seen thousands of people die trying to flee the war in Syria.

More than 260,000 people have signed a petition demanding that the government increase its assistance.

Under British law, only 100,000 signatures are needed to prompt a debate in parliament.

Quote
The refugee crisis is Europe's biggest since World War II. Thousands of Syrian refugees and others, including from Iraq, Afghanistan and Sub-Saharan countries, have made the journey to EU states or are attempting to do so.


I can't find where it indicates just how many "thousands" Cameron is considering here.
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Ariel
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« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2015, 11:06:48 pm »

Cameron is xenophobe. if he is not pressured heavily he'll accept 100 refugees and say that there are hundreds of thousands.
see, a refugee may enter EU in one country, but nit register as a migrant. then they are illegally in the country. within EU you can travel from country to country easily. we do not have strict borders. so, the migrants enter EU in one country and try to go to another - Austria, Germany or UK, so that they register there as legal migrant and start the process of becoming citizens of that country.  
even though we can move easily from country to country it is not easy to change citizenship. so, if a migrant is registered in Hungary, they are stuck with hungarian citizenship
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 11:11:59 pm by Ariel » Logged
kolkomilko
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« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2015, 07:30:03 am »

Content removed at poster's request.  Duplicate post.  YM
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« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2015, 07:49:31 am »

One of the main problem is that nobody inform migrants about laws and other important things in EU countries: for example you mention, Ariel: they have to register in that country when they want to stay. So they need to go that country the first time otherwise they stuck somewhere and they have problems.
Politics is said to be a very sore spot. I have respect for your opinions Countess of Holland but Rumania or Hungary' wealth is not the same as that of Syria: Rumania 72. Hungary 58. Syria 128. on GDP-list. Please don't be angry with saying it.  flower
All of other opinions and every members' opinions (your thoughts, too) on this thread are true and I agree.  flower
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« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2015, 07:51:27 am »

^^ I ask a moderator to delete the first post, I ran out of time to modify it and I had to post again. Thank you.  thankyou

Consider it done.  TY.  YM
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 01:39:43 pm by YooperModerator » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2015, 12:03:55 pm »

I have respect for your opinions Countess of Holland but Rumania or Hungary' wealth is not the same as that of Syria: Rumania 72. Hungary 58. Syria 128. on GDP-list. Please don't be angry with saying it.  flower
All of other opinions and every members' opinions (your thoughts, too) on this thread are true and I agree.  flower

I thought Syria would be wealthier. Anyway, that makes it even more odd that the Syrian refugees want to go to Germany no matter what. Living standards in Rumania and Hungary are already much higher than in Syria and in these countries they will be safe. And I would imagine that safety is most important for them at this moment.

As for registering in a country; that is an essential part of the EU foreign and refugee policy. Refugees need to register in the country of first arrival. In that country they need to await the decision. If they get the official refugee status (and are thus not illegals) they can move within the EU. This is done to ensure that people arem't registering in several countries. That would mean that officials in all these countries will research their request and several will essentially work for nothing. To curb that inefficiency, it was decided that one country is responsible for processing the request of a refugee. And refugees need to await the outcome in that country.
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Ariel
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« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2015, 01:28:43 pm »

the refugees, imo, should not be picky about where they want to be registered. and should not "choose" where they want to be registered. they are either refugees from a war zone who need protection for their life, or they are economic emigrants who don't want to go to Saudi, Kuwait or UAE because there they will not be able to demand to be taken care of.

and one more thing - we need to become restrictive and vigilant in who we accept into our country, imo. IS people are entering our countries disguised as refugees so that they can infiltrate EU with radical islamism. and that is very dangerous. very.
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« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2015, 01:31:32 pm »

^^ Yes, I know it. The other things are ok.

^ I do agree.
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« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2015, 01:47:50 pm »

Thank you all, again, for such important information.  It's amazing how few facts are given in our "media" here in the US.  It's all about the drowned boy and how we should start sending money (which I agree we should help out) and then take in immigrants here (HE## NO).

So, the way the registration thing works from how I read it is that upon entry into a country, that is the person's point of registering and they have about a year to take advantage of the social benefits perks and then are able to move freely within the EU or to the US for that matter, take lower level jobs and so on.  Yes/no?  What social benefits do they receive?  Food allowance, housing, education, transportation?huh

I will say that I agree that this is a prime opportunity for many to infiltrate other countries and are not necessarily true refugees.  It's going to be the number one task for those who are responsible to filter that one.  Anybody who thinks that a radical isn't going to use this opportunity is kidding themselves.
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