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Author Topic: Mary Queen of Scotland and the Isles  (Read 3312 times)
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Kuei Fei
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« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2014, 06:41:19 am »

I LOVE THAT MOVIE!

It's on YouTube and I've watched it a half a dozen times.

There's also this show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRpcOUiJJdc

This show is what's inspired my interest; I think it's an accurate portrayal of the dynamics of a royal court and I believe it is fabulous. Refreshing in how amazing the fashions are instead of the usual drab styles and dresses. Certainly it's filled with endless new plots and situations.

I am sure that Elizabeth was jealous of Mary at times since Mary was after all unquestioned in her role as Queen and didn't have to fight for it. Meanwhile, after Mary claimed the English throne, it's like everything began to fall apart for her. Francis died, then she was kicked out of France, then she was just a mess in Scotland.

Then after she fled to England, she was kept prisoner (unjustly by any standard) and yet, Mary kept plotting for a crown that might have come much later on.
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« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2014, 06:45:59 am »

^
They both played really good parts in that. Mary by all accounts was tall like her Guise relatives.
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« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2014, 07:21:09 am »

I think Mary was kind of like that girl in high school who had it all, but then ended up messing up her life because she couldn't handle real world politics. In France she had it so effortlessly, but now at the point in time when she had to make an effort, she ended up unable to handle it. I pity her, but after she plotted to have Elizabeth murdered, she lost my sympathy. Then there was the murder of her husband, which triggered a backlash since Darnley was for all facts, an anointed king and cousin of Elizabeth.
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« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2014, 08:03:33 am »

well Mary was the star of the French court and she was doted on by her mother in law.  She was used to being admired. 

Mary you know was renowned for her embroidery - there are still samples around.  When she was imprisoned by Elizabeth she had time on her hands so she made a lot of pieces - I think they are more like what we would call crewel today.

Something I found heartbreaking about her execution - her little dog was under her skirts - they found him when they carried her body from the block.  The dog was utterly traumatized and although given to one of Mary's ladies in waiting remained so for the rest of its short dog life.  I don't know why that bothers me so much - but it does - poor little dog so devoted to its mistress.

James her son did do the right thing and created a magnificent tomb for her at Westminster.  The inscription is rather amazing - and James apparently considered his mother the true heir of Henry.  Elizabeth made no tomb for her mother..  Anne Boleyn rested under paving stones in a chapel - unmarked - in the Tower complex along with Catherine Howard and Lady Jane Grey.  She was discovered and moved during Victoria's reign to a more fitting place in the same chapel.

The inscription on Mary's tomb - translated from the latin as composed by her son - James I King of Great Britain and Ireland


“To God, the best and greatest. To her good memory, and in eternal hope. MARY STUART, QUEEN OF SCOTS, Dowager Queen of France, daughter of James V of Scotland, sole heir and great granddaughter of Henry VII, King of England, through his elder daughter Margaret, (who was joined in marriage to James IV of Scotland): great-great-granddaughter of Edward IV, King of England through his eldest daughter of Elizabeth [of York]: wife of Francis II, King of France: sure and certain heiress to the crown of England while she lived: mother of James, most puissant sovereign of Great Britain. She was sprung from royal and most ancient stock, linked on both paternal and maternal side with the greatest princes of Europe, abundantly endowed with most excellent gifts and adornments both of soul and body; yet, such are the manifold changes of human fortune, that, after she had been detained in custody for more or less twenty years, and had courageously and vigorously, (but vainly), fought against the obloquies of her foes, the mistrust of the faint-hearted, and the crafty devices of her mortal enemies, she was at last struck down by the axe (an unheard-of precedent, outrageous to royalty) and, despising the world, conquering death (the executioner being wearied), commending to Christ her Saviour the salvation of her soul; to James he son the hope of a kingdom and posterity, and to all who witnessed her unhappy murder an ensample of endurance, she piously, patiently and courageously submitted her royal neck to the accursed axe, and exchanged the fate of a transitory life for the eternity of an heavenly kingdom, on 8 February, year of Christ 1587, in the 46th year of her age.

If splendour of birth, if rare beauty of form, a mind innocent of vice, an unbesmirched honour, the power of an invincible spirit, a brilliance of intelligence, a hope (springing from piety) of divine consolation, if probity of character, endurance of harsh restraint, if majesty, pure goodness, and a bounteous hand: if all these were able to avoid the pallor-inducing, fulminating thunderbolts of fortune (which seek out mountains and holy places) she would not have died untimely, according to her fated destiny, nor would her effigy be made sorrowful with mourning genii [winged cherubs].

Mistress of Scotland by law, of France by marriage, of England by expectation, thus blest, by a three-fold right, with a three-fold crown; happy, ah, only too happy, had she routed the tumult of war, and, even at a late hour, won over the neighbouring forces. But she perished that she might possess the land: now she triumphs by death, that her stock might thereafter burgeon with fresh fruits. Conquered, she was unconquerable, nor could the dungeon detain her; slain, yet deathless, imprisoned, yet not a prisoner. Thus does the pruned vine groan with a greater abundance of grapes, and the cut jewel gleams with a brilliant splendour.

So seeds, lying hidden through many days, gradually spring up from the fruitful earth. With blood did Jehovah ratify his covenant with his people, with blood did our fathers propitiate the divine powers; with blood were sprinkled those household gods who anger was assuaged; with blood has the land been stained which lately had yielded. Forbear, O God, it is enough: put an end to these unutterable woes. May the day of [their own] death swoop upon the death-dealers. May it be forbidden to slaughter monarchs, that henceforward the land of Britain may never more flow with purple blood. May this precedent of the violent murder of the anointed Queen come to naught; may the instigator and perpetrator rush headlong to destruction.

Should she, after her own death, be vindicated by all the well-disposed, then executioners, tortures, gaols and gallows, all would cease. The Queen accomplished that journey which the heavenly powers allotted. God bestowed happy times, hard times. She gave birth, fate being propitious, to the excellent James, whom Pallas [Athena], the Muses, Diana, and the Fates revere. Great in marriage, greater still in lineage, greatest of all in her progeny, here lies buried the daughter, bride and mother of kings. God grant that her sons, and all who are descended from her, may hereafter behold the cloudless days of eternity. Mourning, I wrote this H.N.[Henry, Earl of Northampton].”

Christ suffered also for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps.
 1.Pet[er].2.21.

Who, when He was reviled, reviled not again; when He suffered, He threatened not; but committed Himself to Him that judgeth righteously.
 1.Pet.2.22 [actually verse 23]


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« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2014, 08:34:26 am »

HECK of a tribute to his mother!

I wonder why Elizabeth never did such a thing for her mother; would have been fitting really.

As for the execution, it did set the precedent for an anointed monarch in their own right to be executed, using judicial procedure and I certainly have to say that I wonder if Marie Antoinette would have ended up alive (along with Louis XVI) if not for what Elizabeth and Walsingham had done, setting up that trap.

Shows how Elizabeth was fooled by James, Elizabeth thought James had never loved his mother, the entire time he might have secretly despised Elizabeth.
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« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2014, 11:38:49 am »

Of course, King Charles I lost his head during the English Civil War, a regicide that horrified the other monarchs of Europe. A Civil War and a Revolution are similar concepts, especially as the precept that Parliament is supreme over the sovereign came from the former conflict.
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« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2014, 03:52:00 am »

Stefan Zweig thinks that Mary's execution/murder set the precedent. Charles I lost his head via a 'trial' that had a preordained verdict and decided punishment. Yet, before, all that, the only real way for a monarch to lose his head/crown was if he/she failed to suppress a rebellion and like Richard III, lost his life in the battlefield.

Elizabeth, in ensnaring Mary via the Babington Plot, used an unprecedented manner, a procedure where a monarch would be tried by subjects, with the entire nation baying for blood, and then of course, an execution. No matter how dignified, it was still in so many ways, a degradation.

Mary even had to put up with having her prayers disrupted by a Protestant pastor who loudly sermonized under the precepts of the Church of England. If Elizabeth hadn't (or Walsingham) set up the Babington Plot, I believe that Mary would have continued plotting until Elizabeth was dead of stress or a successful assassination.

Why Mary kept this up is beyond me; she never knew when the game was lost and never really respected Elizabeth's position. Elizabeth caused her more than enough grief, but at least championed the sacred person of an anointed sovereign. Elizabeth kept her alive in comfort until it became impossible to deal with her.

On one hand, holding Mary was unjust, but a loose free Mary would have likely caused a horrendous amount of damage. Mary could have plotted with the Pope in Rome or sent more effective assassins to remove Elizabeth. Or stirred up more and more rebellion in Scotland and ended up causing damage to her son's life.
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« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2014, 05:41:53 am »

Perhaps Mary, in continuing to plot, was hoping against hope that envoys from the Pope would plead her case with the most powerful of the Catholic monarchs in Europe, and they would help ferment rebellion, in Ireland at least?

 I just feel that at critical moments in her life Mary lacked the judgement that served her cousin Elizabeth so well. When in Scotland she also lacked cool heads among her advisers. There was no Scottish equivalent to the Cecils.
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« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2014, 05:51:36 am »

while Mary was languishing and plotting - Elizabeth was killing everything that moved in Ireland -= Mary could hardly have fermented any more rebellion in Ireland - it was  aflame with a desire to get rid of the English.  The gallic kings had finally united with the anglo French earls/dukes  and it was fight or die time.  Good Queen Bess  and the Irish is one interesting albeit bloody story. 

Didn't one of the Percy's lose his head re: efforts to put Marry on the throne again?

Maybe Mary plotted because she felt secure - sovereign Queen's do not get beheaded.  Maybe she plotted because she knew what was happening in Scotland and needed to get free.

While Mary was imprisoned - her son James had a regent - a guy who sexually exploited him.  The situation became so bad and so obvious ( it was apparent they were lovers - publically so) the Scots earls took matters in their own hands and killed the guy.  Mary may have known what was going on.  Who knows. 




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« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2014, 05:55:05 am »

Frankly, the entire Scots nobility is a disgrace to any concept of noble loyalty and as for Ireland, Elizabeth and all the Tudors before her claimed sovereignty and that was something they had no business claiming. Why on earth Ireland was so important to the English is beyond me.

Too bad the Scots nobility didn't take some kind of initiative and end up trying to get Mary out of her prison. They held her for a while in an island, but I wonder why on earth they didn't invade or at least demand her return to their custody. I wonder if that would have defused the entire situation.

Perhaps Mary, in continuing to plot, was hoping against hope that envoys from the Pope would plead her case with the most powerful of the Catholic monarchs in Europe, and they would help ferment rebellion, in Ireland at least?

 I just feel that at critical moments in her life Mary lacked the judgement that served her cousin Elizabeth so well. When in Scotland she also lacked cool heads among her advisers. There was no Scottish equivalent to the Cecils.

You're right, mainly since the Scots nobility was constantly in a state of perpetual warfare and paid by the English, deliberately undermined their own Sovereign; in England the nobility was largely united behind Elizabeth and the Council were part of her team, a major support system. I find it ironic that Earl of Moray (Mary's illegitimate half brother) was so supportive of Elizabeth and yet, Elizabeth was deliberately undermining his own country's dignity/freedom. He was a traitor through and through and frankly betrayed all the efforts that Scotland made for hundreds of years to remain independent from English domination.

As for judgement, she was completely untrained to deal with everything, unused to self control and unused to dealing with the idea of a set of nobility that didn't bow at her feet. They were so fractious and frankly I am not surprised that she went crazy at times. She might have been tired of humoring the relentlessly chaotic nobility. I really am surprised at times that Mary didn't just bail to France; running into England was the worst choice she could have made.
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« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2014, 06:08:47 am »

Yes, Thomas Percy, the 7th Earl, a leader of the Northern Rebellion. His wife Anne, who was backing him to the hilt, had to spend the rest of her life in Flanders!

I haven't read about Mary, Queen of Scots for many a year, just Elizabeth and James. I have 'The Cradle King' by Alan Stewart on James, an interesting read. There is so much ambiguous and contrary evidence about the relationship between James and his mother, and  accounts of his reactions to her death vary greatly, dependant on the observer. Of course James always had to keep a wary eye on Elizabeth over the border. He knew virtually everything was being reported back. Afterwards of course ---a different story, hence the tomb!
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« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2014, 06:36:52 am »

The story of how the Normans then later the English get involved in Ireland is quite interesting - but all these stories are interesting aren't they?  Let me just say - it involved the King of Leinster kidnapping  the King of Connaught's wife, an English Pope and Norman fear of an enemy on the rear.

I am not so impressed with Elizabeth - the fame and admiration she gets now is I think a function of centuries of propaganda - including Hollywood movies!  It helps to be played by Bette Davis and Cate Blanchett.  I am also not so sure she was so admired or had the support of her nobles either - she had their fear.  Sending 147 of them to the block would have guaranteed a certain fear inspired loyalty.  Plus as I mentioned before (maybe in another thread) many of her portraits were altered in the 1700 and 1800's to make her look different - the originals were of a harsh almost scary looking woman.  So that is how she was seen by her contemporaries.

Elizabeth was also one paranoid woman - as were to some extent all the Tudors - remember they had usurped the throne in the eyes of many  - so there would have been a sense of insecurity.  Consider that Elizabeth - in her fear of the nobles throwing her out in favor of a Plantagenet - had a 70 year old woman killed so as to prevent her from any possibility of producing a Plantagenet heir that might threaten Elizabeth.  Imagine living with the insecurity of her childhood - the games she had to play to survive - the pretenses she had to engage in - and then the pressures of the monarchy - it would not be surprising if she did not over time crack herself.  Killing a 70 year old was not the actions of a sane rational woman.

The madness she engages in with Ireland - a revolt she causes - actually brings England to the very edge of bankruptcy - something historians in their devotion to the lavishness of her court forget to mention.

I am a needle worker myself so I have had occasion to read a lot about Mary during her imprisonment and the time she spent doing needlework.  Elizabeth also did needlework and there is a surviving prayer book cover she worked.

here are images of Mary's needlework that survive

https://www.google.com/search?q=Needlework+done+by+Mary+Queen+of+scots&newwindow=1&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=JTp8U9_zNoHMsQSX7YGoCg&ved=0CDgQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=753

here is something done by Elizabeth when she was 11 years old - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/Elizabeth_I_embroidery[url]]


here is something done by Elizabeth when she was 11 years old - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/Elizabeth_I_embroideryhttp://
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« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2014, 06:59:32 am »

Wonderful piece of workmanship for one so young in the piece of Elizabeth's surviving needlework.

Mary was most prolific! It must have been a huge strain on the eyes, and once darkness fell I suppose all the finer sewing had to be put away. Some beautiful examples there, and very intrigued by the recurring pussy-cats! Were cats part of her personal emblem or motif, a 'signature' to her work?
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« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2014, 07:23:57 am »

I don't know - cats were not common pets in those days - which they should have been due to the mice infestations those houses had.  I also find the jungle creatures - the monkeys etc she uses - even the marine creatures - interesting.  The medeivals were fascinated by those animals though - especially monkeys - they figure all over their illuminated manuscripts - not so much cats though so that is a bit odd.  May be they did have cats in that household?

There is another sample of Elizabeth's work that is very impressive too - can't find it - the work above is amazing for an 11 year old - most adults would find it hard to emulate that.
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« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2014, 08:42:11 am »

Off -topic, but the Earl of Southampton (Shakespeare's patron) had a portrait of himself painted while a prisoner in the Tower, complete with his moggy. Both have green eyes and are 'clad' in black and white. Both have a feline look. The legend was that Southampton's faithful cat patrolled the roofs and chimneys of the tower until he found his master.

Yes, I expect that is the explanation. I suppose Palaces and large houses would have had a certain number of cats to keep the mice down. Maybe one or two stayed in the private apartments, with Mary and her ladies.
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« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2014, 09:05:31 am »

that is such a nice story about south Hampton - thanks for sharing it - going to find that portrait
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« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2014, 06:13:28 pm »

Interesting how the North, the most status conscious aristocrats in England, were so supportive of Mary and often anti-Tudor. Always in a form of one rebellion or another and spent much of their time plotting; Norfolk even wanted to marry Mary, despite Mary's track record.
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« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2014, 06:19:59 pm »

There were quite a lot of Roman Catholic country gentry in Lancashire I believe. Many of the manor houses had priest holes hidden behind the panelling. Not safe to follow your faith in those days. The authorities were unsympathetic to say the least and often huge fines were imposed for non-appearance at Church
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« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2014, 07:24:42 pm »

I'm guessing Mary Queen of Scotland was suffering from bad judgement.

Par example when she married her husbonds alleged murderer 3 months after the murder.

http://search.mywebsearch.com/mywebsearch/redirect.jhtml?action=pick&qs=&pr=GG&searchfor=Facts+about+Mary+Queen+of+Scots&cb=ZO&p2=%5EZO%5Exdm071%5EYY%5Edk&n=77DE8857&qid=2ceba4d88b5246ceb5e6d4fad7fec677&ptb=F22D8F7D-8531-4DB8-ACFE-CF40227F0E89&si=PI_UT_FIG_DEN_25&pg=GGmain&ots=1400695535183&pn=1&ss=sub&st=hp&tpr=jrel3&redirect=mPWsrdz9heamc8iHEhldEeqHzQQ96GVgM%2FEVTJfa1OmOVxoBIdzyNRRbVrxo6uCre%2FPXGCCr3CQ%2B%2FpSkKBSa5X%2FPDN2Sq%2BhIzskgt1OIv7A%3D&ord=0&ct=AR&

Mary Stuart was born on December 8, 1542, in Linlithgow Palace, West Lothian, Scotland. She was the daughter of King James V of Scotland and his second wife, Mary of Guise. Her father died when Mary was only 6 days old, making her Mary, Queen of Scots.

Given Mary's age, her great uncle, Henry VIII, made a bid for control, but her mother ended up acting as regent on Mary's behalf. Mary was initially betrothed to Henry VIII's son, Prince Edward of England, but Scottish Catholics objected to this plan, as England had separated from the Catholic Church. When the match was annulled, England attacked Scotland in raids that became known as "The Rough Wooing."

Mary's mother was French, and the Scots had a longstanding alliance with France, so Mary was betrothed to the 4-year-old French heir. At the age of 5, Mary was sent to France, where she grew up in the luxurious French court. In 1558, she married Francis, the eldest son of French King Henry II and Catherine de Medicis.


Claim to the English Throne

In November 1558, Henry VIII's daughter, Elizabeth Tudor, became Queen Elizabeth I of England. However, many Roman Catholics considered Elizabeth's rule to be illegitimate, as they did not recognize the validity of Henry VIII's marriage to Anne Boleyn, Elizabeth's mother.

Mary's great-grandfather had been Henry VII (the father of Henry VIII); as a legitimate descendant of the Tudor line, she had a strong claim to the English throne. Mary's French father-in-law, Henry II, made this claim on her behalf.


Queen of France and Return to Scotland

In 1559, Mary's husband was crowned Francis II, making Mary his queen consort. Unfortunately, Francis died from an ear infection the year after he ascended to the throne, leaving Mary a widow at 18.

Following her husband's death, Mary returned to Scotland. By the time of her return, in 1561, John Knox's influence had changed Scotland's official religion from Catholicism to Protestantism. As a Roman Catholic raised in France, Mary found herself an outsider. However—with help from her illegitimate half-brother, James, earl of Moray—Mary managed to rule while creating an atmosphere of religious tolerance.


Scandal and Abdication

In 1565, Mary gave into infatuation and married her cousin, Henry Stewart, earl of Darnley. Mary's new husband was a grandson of Margaret Tudor; Mary uniting with a Tudor infuriated Elizabeth. Her marriage to Darnley also turned Mary's half-brother against her.

Darnley's own ruthless ambition caused other problems. In 1566, Darnley and a group of Protestant nobles viciously murdered David Rizzio, Mary's Italian secretary, stabbing him 56 times as a pregnant Mary looked on. Mary gave birth to Darnley's son—the future James VI of Scotland and James I of England—a few months after the murder, but she no longer wished to be married to Darnley.

When Darnley was mysteriously killed following an explosion at Kirk o' Field, outside Edinburgh, in February 1567, foul play was suspected. Mary's involvement is unclear, but she consented to marry the main suspect in her husband's murder—James Hepburn, earl of Bothwell—only three months later.

This scandalous union made the Scottish nobility rise against Mary. Bothwell was sent into exile, while Mary was imprisoned in Lochleven Castle. In July 1567, Mary was compelled to abdicate the throne in favor of her infant son.


Prisoner, Conviction and Death

In 1568, Mary escaped from Lochleven. She raised an army, but was soon defeated. Mary then fled to England, where she sought Elizabeth's protection. Instead of helping her cousin, Elizabeth imprisoned Mary. Mary's captivity would last for the next 18 years.
Given Mary's lineage and religion, she became the focus of Catholic plots to assassinate Elizabeth so that Mary could take the throne. Mary corresponded with Anthony Babington, one such plotter. When Elizabeth's spymaster uncovered the letters in 1586, Mary was brought to trial and found guilty of treason.
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« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2014, 08:41:12 pm »

Reportedly, Mary was pregnant and wouldn't have a kid out of wedlock; she staged a 'kidnapping' and were later married to restore Mary's honor. Remember, back then they didn't sympathize with a woman who was assaulted and the only way to save herself was to marry her abductor.
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