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Author Topic: The Gun Debate In The USA  (Read 5875 times)
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Snokitty
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« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2012, 08:38:18 am »

Well people don't ask to be burglarized either so my analogy still works for me.
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« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2013, 12:24:42 am »

Then we'll have to agree to disagree.  It's moot anyway since the US will never (or at least anytime soon) pass any accountability laws, even minimal ones.  Too many gun crazies and shills for weapons manufacturers in power.  I don't think even what happened Connecticut is enough to be a true watershed moment; maybe a return of the assault weapon ban that was in place for a few years but even that was watered down and had too many exceptions to be fully effective.
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If you resort to personal attacks, name-calling, and other forms of abuse against me, you are admitting you have lost the argument and have nothing worthwhile to say. 

Not joining in with your starry-eyed hero worship does not make me delusional, it means I have no interest in drinking your poisoned Kool-Aid. 

Have a nice day.
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« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2013, 04:25:26 am »

^You're absolutely right.  It will take years, if ever, to remove the guns that are everywhere in the USA.  It's just too large and those that want them will get them anyway.  To argue the point is, to me, pointless.  Should we have a law to ban the sale of assault weapons?  Yes!  But, we already do in most states, so that's just a matter of time for all to come on board.  It's illegal to own an 'assault' weapon in California, which is hard to define anyway, but I found this thought-provoking and should be given its own respect as well because he has a right, more than we, to say something:

Quote
COLUMBINE STUDENT'S FATHER 12 YEARS LATER
 
On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful.

The legislators were not prepared for what he was to say. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness.. The following is a portion of the transcript:

"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers.
 
"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used.. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart.

"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent

I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy -- it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best.

Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You've stripped away our heritage,
You've outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question "Why?"
You regulate restrictive laws,
Through legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need!

"Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs -- politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts.

"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes, he did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America , and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA -- I give to you a sincere challenge.. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone!

My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!"
 - Darrell Scott
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\"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.\"  Thomas Jefferson
Snokitty
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« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2013, 04:45:13 am »

IMO he has no more right to have his words mean more than any other person who has lost someone to a violent crime.

I don't think we need to bring religion into the schools there are religious schools already established for people who feel their children need to combine the two but it is wrong to shove someone's religious beliefs down someone's throat who may not necessarily believe the same way.

The gun debate to me has nothing to do with religion.

Assault weapons should be banned nationally. Yes man has been killing man since the beginning of time and if someone chooses to kill they will find a way which just gives more credence to the argument to ban assault weapons. There is no reasonable explanation for giving a killer a very easy way to kill more people in a shorter span of time.
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Yooper
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« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2013, 01:32:54 pm »

^Apparently, I was unclear.  This person who spoke to our legislators' opinion carries more weight than we do in THIS discussion.  Unless there is somebody here who has had someone shot to death, innocently, by an assault rifle here in THIS debate.

It is only one man's opinion and up for discussion.  To take it any farther than that was not my intention.

To think, for one second, that someone who wants to kill is going to be stopped by any legislation is a dreamer.  They will do it and they will find the means to kill.  All the legislation in
the world, or demonizing the NRA isn't going to stop it.  It will, however, help people to think that 'something is being done'.  But, that's about it.  It will also help/hurt some of our representatives at home.  It's political but not the solution. 

And I, personally, do see a correlation between the lack of respect to those above us in the classroom, to our defenders/police, everywhere as a real link to the prevailing violence.  There was a time when I said sir/madam in school.  When I, and still do, said a private prayer in school.  I don't care if it's meditation or whatever your religious beliefs are, but to have a sense of a day of reckoning makes a difference.  I've SEEN it.  I've seen more death in the last few years than some have and I can tell you with absolute assurance that there is a difference between those who have a sense of a higher power and those who do not and how they die.  I, personally, also don't see any difference, if you are an atheist or agnostic, to study the Bible just as you would any history book.  Believe it, don't believe it.  Your choice.  History books are full of inaccuracies as well and I don't believe that George Washington's portrayal is accurate either.

But, I know this:  If someone had a gun to one's head, I guarantee you, prayer and love would be the last thing they thought on this earth.  That's powerful, meaningful, and something we need to have in our lives.
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\"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.\"  Thomas Jefferson
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« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2013, 02:29:43 pm »

Quote
Yes man has been killing man since the beginning of time and if someone chooses to kill they will find a way which just gives more credence to the argument to ban assault weapons. There is no reasonable explanation for giving a killer a very easy way to kill more people in a shorter span of time.

Just to make my self clear this is what I said and legislation is all that will bring this about.

Freedom of Religion also includes Freedom from Religion. If someone feels a need for religion that is why there is a church on what seems like every street corner in the USA they don't also need it in the schools. What prayer would they force children to say Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist etc.?

I also have some experience with death. 2 1/2 years ago a drunk driver hit our car my Husband was killed and his last thoughts were trying to protect me. I was in the hospital for 9 months going through procedures to save my life and almost lost the battle more than once. So I guess death is an experience that we all have some type of association with.

The difference between the Bible and a History book is that History books contain documents written by the subject of the book and people didn't use them as a religious and worship text. I believe everyone has a right to believe anyway they choose but they do not have the right to shove it down anyone's throat who chooses not to believe that way.

If someone has an actual gun to your head fear for your life would be the last thing that happened.

This thread is about the gun debate and the religious mans words should not have been brought into it IMO because they hold no weight in the argument. If you wish to protect the NRA that is your choice what I wish for is that there are no more massacres like Sandy Hook and that will only stop with the removal of assault weapons.

To think that continuing to allow assault weapons and magazines of ammunition where they do not have to reload and can kill more people in a shorter amount of time to me is thoughtless and unrealistic, I would rather be a dreamer.
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Yooper
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« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2013, 03:59:40 pm »

There was an assault gun ban but was not renewed in 2004.  Hopefully, that will change.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

Quote
The Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB), or Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, was a subtitle of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, a federal law in the United States that included a prohibition on the manufacture for civilian use of certain semi-automatic firearms, so called "assault weapons". The 10-year ban was passed by Congress on September 13, 1994, and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton the same day. The ban only applied to weapons manufactured after the date of the ban's enactment.
The Federal Assault Weapons Ban expired on September 13, 2004, as part of the law's sunset provision. There have been multiple attempts to renew the ban,[1] but no bill has reached the House floor for a vote.

It would take more study on my part to find out why it wasn't renewed, but I feel confident that it will be enacted and probably more stridently.  It will not, however, prevent somebody who is determined to kill with an assault weapon; that is just not going to happen.  I wish it were true and anyone sure can hope.  But those evil things are so easy to get, laws or no laws, which is appalling, to me.

It's only my opinion, of course, but I think it would be helpful to have a broader study of religions in schools.  Not proselytizing. It may even inform and allow for a certain level of tolerance for all religions.  There is a lot I don't know about other religions and study when I get the chance, but I don't see the harm in education on the issue.  It is also history and affects a great amount of violence, intolerance, and misunderstanding in this country.  Young minds are is a ripe time when the prejudices are formed and could be done as an educational and informative tool.  I see nothing wrong with it since it plays a strong role in our daily lives.  And this, which is my point, would provide a broader acceptance of others, which may play an important part in slowing down violence, so I do see a point in the education of belief systems in our world.

I, personally, would not have fear as my last thought on this earth and would pray.  For me, with faith, there is no fear.  But, a strong foundation in the homes and schools on proper respect for authority, to me, is paramount in mental and emotional health.

I'm also glad that our government is including a good overhaul of the mental health care system in this country.  This is an integral part in the gun debate and I feel that we are severely lacking in providing proper access to care and understanding of mental and emotional disorders in this country.
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\"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.\"  Thomas Jefferson
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« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2013, 06:14:44 pm »

I'm so sorry to read about Your loss of a beloved husbond and Your fight to get back into life  hug

And I also don't see how religion or lack of it can be relevant in a gun debate.

This last gun incident happened because a mentally ill son was living with a mother that loved her weapons. Isn't it the case?

And this mother lived in a country where it is possibly to have such a gun collection.

If they had lived in a country where such a love of guns is considered abnormal and hideous, her son would probably have killed his mother with a knife instead. Sorry not a lovely thought  ick
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Mon Roi Henry IX
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« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2013, 06:41:03 pm »

Real change can happen only when we commit ourselves to rebuilding civil society in America, meaning a society based on family, religion, civic and social institutions, and peaceful cooperation through markets
~RON PAUL
(American physician, author, and a former politician who served as the U.S. Representative for Texas's 14th congressional district)

BE patient and listen to this video in its entirety:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RljkKc6x3-s&feature=player_embedded
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HC
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« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2013, 07:02:23 pm »

So Ron Paul thinks people should be restricted within religion and have plenty of weapons.  sly

Or be restricted when it comes to weapon and have plenty of religions or both or ....
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Snokitty
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« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2013, 07:10:05 pm »

Quote
I, personally, would not have fear as my last thought on this earth and would pray.  For me, with faith, there is no fear.  But, a strong foundation in the homes and schools on proper respect for authority, to me, is paramount in mental and emotional health.

One never knows how they will react in any given situation until they are placed in said situation. The human being will have fear and if they start praying it will be fear that made them think of it.

When authority figures become respectable again then maybe society will show them respect again.

I'm so sorry to read about Your loss of a beloved husbond and Your fight to get back into life  hug

And I also don't see how religion or lack of it can be relevant in a gun debate.

This last gun incident happened because a mentally ill son was living with a mother that loved her weapons. Isn't it the case?

And this mother lived in a country where it is possibly to have such a gun collection.

If they had lived in a country where such a love of guns is considered abnormal and hideous, her son would probably have killed his mother with a knife instead. Sorry not a lovely thought  ick

Thank you HC for the kind words.
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Mon Roi Henry IX
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« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2013, 08:10:51 pm »

So Ron Paul thinks people should be restricted within religion and have plenty of weapons.  sly

Or be restricted when it comes to weapon and have plenty of religions or both or ....

@HC,
What he said it's banning guns ( mind you I don't like guns nor own any) does not change the fact that if people are wild , no control , no family values ( as people that join gangs) they will kill anyway without guns. IMO In any society where the main goal is not a civilized society with family values, religion ( or humanatarian beliefs for those that are atheists) where education, culture, arts, is not the main goal people with guns or not guns will go commit violence.
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Snokitty
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« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2013, 08:16:46 pm »

The debate is more about stopping the ability to kill mass people at one time. Certain magazines of ammunition and certain weapons allow the killer to kill more people in a shorter span of time.

Yes there are always going to be people who will kill but why continue giving them the opportunity to kill mass numbers of people at once.
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HC
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« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2013, 08:38:07 pm »

So Ron Paul thinks people should be restricted within religion and have plenty of weapons.  sly

Or be restricted when it comes to weapon and have plenty of religions or both or ....

@HC,
What he said it's banning guns ( mind you I don't like guns nor own any) does not change the fact that if people are wild , no control , no family values ( as people that join gangs) they will kill anyway without guns. IMO In any society where the main goal is not a civilized society with family values, religion ( or humanatarian beliefs for those that are atheists) where education, culture, arts, is not the main goal people with guns or not guns will go commit violence.
Thanks for explaining

We have gangs here as well. But they shoot each other. A bit cynical, sorry
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« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2013, 12:21:27 am »

The debate is more about stopping the ability to kill mass people at one time. Certain magazines of ammunition and certain weapons allow the killer to kill more people in a shorter span of time.

Yes there are always going to be people who will kill but why continue giving them the opportunity to kill mass numbers of people at once.

@I'm sure totally against weapons that are used in wars. To me they have no place in any society. The weapon that was used against the children and adults in Connecticut should not be out there.
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« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2013, 10:18:21 pm »

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/12/opinion/senator-reid-takes-fresh-aim.html?ref=opinion&_r=0

Quote
During a tight re-election campaign in 2010, when the vote of gun owners was crucial, Harry Reid, the Democratic majority leader of the Senate, not only showed his prowess with a 12-gauge shotgun — hitting two clay pigeons from the air — but also invited Wayne LaPierre, chief executive officer of the National Rifle Association, as his guest for the opening of a new shooting range in Searchlight, Nev. Mr. Reid, a former policeman, eagerly displayed his sportsman’s enthusiasm to the voters.

 It turned out his solidarity with the N.R.A. extended to quietly inserting an amendment that year into President Obama’s health care reform law that restricted the ability of physicians to gather data about their patients’ use of firearms.

The provision, reported last month in The Washington Post, reflected the N.R.A.’s long-running obsession with preventing gun-related deaths and injuries from being studied as a major public health problem that should be controlled the way government monitors risks connected to automobiles, airplanes and consumer products. For decades, lawmakers have let the gun lobby block financing for and limit gun research by the National Institutes of Health and other agencies.


Everything is being run by idiots.
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« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2013, 09:29:26 pm »

Assault weapons should be banned except for the military.  Period.  The rest?  It's not going to be possible to get every gun out of every hand in the United States.  At least not mine.  I have a .22 target rifle that I use to hit playing cards in the back woods of Michigan.  It is a fun sport for me and I am also a licensed sharpshooter and instructor, so I know how serious guns are. 

If I thought for one instant that taking away my .22 would end senseless violence?  Here ya go. 

But, it goes against any reasonable, logic thought. If someone wants to kill innocent people, they will do it and nothing you nor I can do will ever, ever stop them. 

Every government in the world does it every. single. day.
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« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2013, 11:48:27 am »

That's true, Yooper. In our news headlines today, it was reported that someone allegedly shot their lover, even though an AVO (Apprehended Violence Order) was apparently in place. This happens all the time. I could go on and on about the inadequacy and lack of natural justice of these court orders, but I digress ...

Time and again, we hear or read about AVOs being breached. The view of the criminal law fraternity is that the obtaining of AVOs are abused by vindictive partners who only want to punish their ex partners. They are not really in need of protection, but an AVO is brilliant for that purpose: ie restricting the civil liberties of law abiding, rational citizens.

For those who really need the protection an AVO theoretically enforces, it is hopelessly inadequate. Nutters will ignore a piece of paper, granted under civil law, which is what an AVO is. It's not an armed guard.
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« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2013, 03:03:59 pm »

The last school shooting would perhaps not have taken place if the mother of the young man didn't have such a love for weapon a such a gun collection.

Then the mentally ill son would have slaughtered his mother with a bread knife instead.  nervous

Here in Denmark one can get a personal alarm. If your spouse or ex husbond wants to murder you etc., this alarm will send the police to your aid immediately. There is some sort of gps in it.
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« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2013, 02:44:29 am »

http://www.upworthy.com/why-mass-shootings-are-big-money-for-the-gun-lobby?c=utw1

The NRA is the big problem in any solution that will work.

I just don't get the argument of "If people want to kill they will" so does that mean nothing should be done to stop the large numbers that assault rifles can cause. The only ones talking about taking everyone's guns away is the NRA and Fox news mouthpieces.
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