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Author Topic: C & C visit New Zealand + Australia  (Read 7672 times)
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sandy
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« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2012, 06:16:22 pm »

If Charles is a "head of state" where was his coronation? He had an investiture as Prince of Wales conferred on him by his mother, the Head of State QE II. His mother also decided when he would get the title Prince of Wales and when he would have his investitute. The people of Wales consider the Queen as Head of State. There have been Princes of Wales for centuries but the monarch is always the Head of State.  For instance Prince Arthur of Wales set up a household and court at Ludlow Castle but he did not rule Wales, his father Henry VII did. If there were need for a "head of state" in Wales George VI would have named his daughter Princess of Wales which he could have done. But he believed the Princess of Wales should be wife of the heir to the throne not an heiress presumptive to the throne. It didn't matter since their head of state was George VI himself and there were no demands by the people that Princess Elizabeth 'rule: them.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 06:20:12 pm by sandy » Logged
True Brit
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« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2012, 06:39:20 pm »

^ Agree Sandy and what many people, perhaps most, don't realise is the investiture ceremony at Carnaervon Castle was a complete 20th century fabrication invented by the RF on behalf of the RF.

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Alexandrine
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« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2012, 06:51:40 pm »

Charles doesn't get a treatment as head of state when he goes out of the country. He's just QE's heir. This is the very first time that I've heard him considered as one.
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Spice
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« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2012, 08:29:59 pm »

Jane are you even a citizen of the UK or any commonwealth realm?  Or are you American?  Dearie, I live in NZ, which is a country that has QEII as its head of state.  Her heir is currently visiting my country.  I suggest you let it go when you stumble onto a subject you know nothing about.  This discussion was about the arrest of a protester, and Charles being entitled to police protection as a VIP, not as a head of state. We have countless VIPs visit NZ every year and only a handful of them are heads of state.  Just let it go.
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meememe
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« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2012, 08:57:06 pm »

^I was planning to, but then decided I couldn't stomach seeing them in person.  I am finding the media coverage of the tour so sickening... our Prime Minister drooling over them, claiming that most people support the monarchy... what rubbish.  NZ taxpayers are paying all their tour costs but the govt is keeping the amount secret... PM also having secret meeting with him... I'm disgusted that he has such access to our govt and can pressure/influence them as he pleases without any accountability to NZ citizens.  It's a disgrace.  I wish someone had been able to protest and show the world we are not all sycophants.  I don't support the idea of anyone assaulting them, of  course (someone here threw an egg at the Queen in the 1980s) but I would have liked to see some coverage of peaceful protest.  The next stop in the tour is Christchurch, which is probably the most "loyal"/royalist part of the country. 


When did Charles had a 'secret' meeting with the PM and if it was a 'secret meeting' how do you know about it?

The Court Circular records Charles as having a private meeting with the PM and with the Leader of the Opposition - as he did in Australia and PNG.  That is normal protocol on these visit - a private formal meeting between the representative of The Queen (the Head of State of NZ) and the PM.  It doesn't happen when they are making a visit at which they aren't formally representing The Queen. 
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Spice
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« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2012, 09:07:41 pm »

^Private/secret whatever... I object to a representative of my hereditary head of state having a private meeting with my elected political leader.  I also object to having QEII as my head of state, much as I admire the individual herself.  She's a lovely old dear, but I do wish she'd stay out of my democracy.
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Jane23
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« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2012, 10:07:58 pm »

@ Spice Who talked about NZ? We were talking about Wales and how he is the boss there given that he is Prince of Wales and all  sly you don't need a Master or anything to figure that one out...all you need is Google :


 Created Prince of Wales
Main article: Investiture of the Prince of Wales


Charles was created Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester on 26 July 1958,[9][10] though his investiture as such was not conducted until 1 July 1969, wherein he was crowned by his mother in a televised ceremony held at Caernarfon Castle, and gave his replies and speech in both Welsh and English.[11] The following year he took his seat in the House of Lords,[12] and later in the decade became the first member of the Royal Family since King George I to attend a British Cabinet meeting, having been invited by Prime Minister James Callaghan so that the Prince might see the workings of the British government and Cabinet at first hand


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Alexandrine
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« Reply #47 on: November 15, 2012, 10:23:09 pm »

If you are going to use wiki just check the Wales page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales especially where it says monarch: Elizabeth II.

Charles is also the duke of cornwall and he is not the "boss" there either, right now he only bosses the duchy of cornwall although he tries with the black spider memos.

He doesn't get anywhere treatment as a head of state.
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June
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« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2012, 02:27:58 am »

Jane are you even a citizen of the UK or any commonwealth realm?  Or are you American?  Dearie, I live in NZ, which is a country that has QEII as its head of state.  Her heir is currently visiting my country.  I suggest you let it go when you stumble onto a subject you know nothing about.  This discussion was about the arrest of a protester, and Charles being entitled to police protection as a VIP, not as a head of state. We have countless VIPs visit NZ every year and only a handful of them are heads of state.  Just let it go.

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The form of government that is the Constitutional Monarchy - no matter, or because of, devotion to royalty itself, sometimes needs explanation.

Charles has no power as Head of State (under the Australian Constitution), even when representing the Queen. His visit is ceremonial only. The 'Queen' is actually styled in the Constitution because the GG is her representative.

If the Queen became so infirm such that she was ill to discharge her duty, she would be replaced by her heir or successor, according to law.


« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 02:31:31 am by June » Logged
Spice
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« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2012, 02:52:46 am »

Jane, you were the one who introduced this concept of "head of state" visiting NZ needing police protection - the incident occurred in NZ, we were all talking about NZ, this is the country that you think he is head of state of, by virtue of his ceremonial-only title PoW, LOL. 

HM is pretty old, bless her, but she ain't dead yet!
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June
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« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2012, 03:02:17 am »

^ Correct again, Spice. Ceremony doesn't come into in my Constitution. It is a matter of law (refer my post above).

The Australian people will ultimately decide if Charles becomes King in Oz - not HM, the dear lady. I'm personally very fond of her, she has served us well.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 03:04:53 am by June » Logged
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« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2012, 03:11:22 am »

Yes and the people of each commonwealth realm will ultimately get to decide, if there is enough support for referenda and the like.  I think this trip has been very carefully tailored to drum up maximum support for Charles-as-King in each country they've visited.  I don't know much about PNG except they have enough problems feeding their people let alone think about constitutional reform at the moment.  But for AU and NZ, I'm sure when they were planning the jubilee year, there's a reason they sent C&C here, and at the end of the year.  The trick seems to have worked for now,  but I guarantee it will not be as smooth sailing when people face up to actually having them on our thrones.
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June
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« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2012, 04:08:15 am »

Definitely so. I also think it was a strategic move to send Charles and Camilla, rather than William and Kate. The BRF knows that Charles is the hurdle to sell the monarchy to Oz and NZ.

William might win the people over, but he is not next in line. The good news is that the BRF knows that pushing W & K down the throats of the Commonwealth will only work for a limited time. As you say, what counts is who will actually be sitting on the throne after HM passes.
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« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2012, 10:40:45 am »

Jane,

POW is just a hereditary title. I don't think that Charles even owns a property in Wales but I will stand corrected on that one. Most Welsh people do not recognise Charles as the Prince of Wales. They recognise Llewellyn as the last Prince of Wales.
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True Brit
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« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2012, 11:43:36 am »

Jane - Charles does not sit in the House of Lords as the hereditary peers have been abolished. I said earlier that the investiture ceremony at Caernarvon was simply a piece of theatre dreamt up by a creative team on behalf of the Royal Family - it has no historic precedent.

A good friend of mine worked on the staging and worked alongsde the then Anthony Armstrong Jones who was also involved inthe project.

Prince of Wales is simply a title and he is definitely not the "boss of Wales". Wales is simply another part of the UK albeit recognised as having it's own character, culture and language. It has devolved regional government but shares its legal system with England.

Freya here is a property in Wales which belongs to the Duchy of Cornwall which was acquired fairly recently. I have read he is supposed to stay in it when visiting Wales but that won't be often. The rest of the time I think it's a holiday let.

Otherwise completely agree with you re the Welsh - fiercely proud and hard working and they have produced some radica politicians - Nye Bevin who introduced the NHS, David Loyd George who introduced old age pensions (mind you alos sold peerages too) and others.

There is the story of the Duke of Windsor when, as POW, visited the miners in the valleys of South Wales in the 1930s when conditions were beyond hard. The newsreel always shows them cheering but in actual fact he was met with boos and jeers - they *despise* being patronised.

« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 11:55:34 am by True Brit » Logged

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Alexandrine
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« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2012, 01:32:02 pm »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2233829/Prince-Charles-takes-spin-dancefloor-New-Zealand.html

we know now where William got his moves...
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meememe
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« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2012, 08:21:52 pm »

Jane,

POW is just a hereditary title. I don't think that Charles even owns a property in Wales but I will stand corrected on that one. Most Welsh people do not recognise Charles as the Prince of Wales. They recognise Llewellyn as the last Prince of Wales.


Small correction - POW isn't an hereditary title.  It has to be created anew each time.

When The Queen dies and Charles becomes King, William will automatically become Duke of Cornwall but will have to wait for his father to create him Prince of Wales (The Queen waited until 1958 for Charles who automatically become Duke of Cornwall when she became Queen).
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meememe
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« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2012, 08:24:28 pm »

^Private/secret whatever... I object to a representative of my hereditary head of state having a private meeting with my elected political leader.  I also object to having QEII as my head of state, much as I admire the individual herself.  She's a lovely old dear, but I do wish she'd stay out of my democracy.


You do realise that these private meetings with the Head of Government and the Leader of the Opposition are standard diplomatic meetings that occur during official visits by a Head of State or by their official representative e.g. if the VP of the US visited NZ as the official representative of the president he/she would also have these meetings but if he/she visited in their own capacity of VP then the meeting wouldn't take place.  It is part of the diplomatic niceties between nations and nothing more.
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