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Author Topic: The Romanovs  (Read 67628 times)
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Alexandrine
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« Reply #180 on: June 03, 2017, 04:46:07 pm »

Lol no.

The borbon faimily was killed by guilllotine a century before and many other aristo families. Maybe they had trials but it was not like anyone was going to find them innocent. And genocided had happened before the holocaust. One could theorise that the romanoc power disappearing was part of the change of the western world that culminated in the wwii. But it probably had much more influence the disappearence of the austrian empire.

It is not as if the russian empire was all flowers and happiness. Rule of law was more the rule of the aristocracy and mainly the tsar.
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« Reply #181 on: June 03, 2017, 05:40:01 pm »

I know that, but the fact of the matter remains that if the main family had had refuge, at least there wouldn't have been such a vicious murder. In the French Revolution, they guillotined an anointed King and Queen under a sham trial, which set the precedent for the use of the guillotine on the people. Given the publicity surrounding the trial of a Tsar and Consort, it might have saved their lives once each had been given a chance to tell the truth in full. Nicholas and Alexandra could have explained things in more detail and even during the French Revolution, the daughter of Louis XVI was allowed to live and be released. There was never any justification for arbitrarily deciding to execute the daughters and a sickly hemophiliac boy.
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« Reply #182 on: June 03, 2017, 08:18:23 pm »

The guillotine, during the Reign of Terror, was used widely on citizens and aristocracy before Louis XVI was beheaded.  So, it set no precedent.  The killing and revolutions against and of kings, queens, caesars, emperors is as old as 'civilization' itself.  So, I'm confused on your rationale with the Romanovs, KF. 
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« Reply #183 on: June 03, 2017, 10:04:35 pm »

Nicholas and Alexandra were not given a chance to defend themselves, even in a puppet court; the children were butchered. There is no way that the BRF couldn't send a show of strength and send the Romanovs to one of their established colonies all around the world. There was no need to bring them to Britain itself. They could have been sent to Hong Kong, or to one of the African colonies, or one place on this earth; or they could have been ostensibly sent to one of the colonies, but secretly housed somewhere in Scotland. Thousands of acres of land and it would have been easy to keep it a secret. The BRF had the tools to send in some squadron in secret and no one would have been the wiser.
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« Reply #184 on: June 03, 2017, 10:19:46 pm »

Also, Louis 14th was self-serving and living the rich life on the expense of the people. Nikolas on the other hand was loved by half the nation, abdicated because he thought he was a weak ruler (his generals deserted him) and if he asked for asylum, then it was just because he wanted a peaceful life. His death lead to the rise of communism,to Stalin killing 20mil 'opponents' (19 more than Hitler), to Polpot killing half of Cambodia (3mil), the Tiananmen square genocide in China ... Lots of bad blood on brf's hands if they were begged for asylum and didn't say yes.
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« Reply #185 on: June 03, 2017, 10:41:30 pm »

The romanovss were a disaster to Russia, they were not good monarchs. Communism was a result to their bad governing not his death. Not that he deserved to die but neither the russian population had a better life. Maybe the result was worse for them than having a monarchy seriously who knows but they made a revolution because the situation was horrible.

Their death was unfair but it did not create the holocaust and neither did it create communism. He was also not the first tsar to get killed. Only that they had more luck with the wwi going on and they could overthrow the monarchy completely.
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« Reply #186 on: June 04, 2017, 10:14:55 am »

^ Alexandrine  worship worship I whole-heartedly agree!
In my opinion, the Romanovs, the Habsburgs, the spanish Borbons, the french Bourbouns, the Branganças, all of them produced a majority of weak kings who've weakened the strong people whom were their subjects. The weakness I'm talking about isn't lack of strenght, it's lack of wisdom, lack of knowledge, lack of intelligence to wield power. Terrible at ruling, ignorant, dissolute, self-absorbed and narcisistic kings make horrible, unthoughful, unkind and stupid decisions, and when a series of worldwide events occur, a set of circumstances starts to give rise to bigger concerns, and conflict situations and the people take drastic decisions, no matter how unfair to change the situation.

That's the problem with monarchies and governments, really, they always seem to forget that on the contrary to the lies they feed us about God-given rights to rule (how many kings and queens have been assassinated of victims of evil plots so someone more convenient would seat in the throne? Look at Isabella, the Catholic queen,directly she had no God-given right to rule, she just spread lies and conceived all sorts of machinations to overthrow Juana) or their abilities and projects to govern (republics), their right to rule comes from the people, because they allow themselves to be ruled by these individuals.
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« Reply #187 on: June 04, 2017, 12:04:38 pm »

George V had to make the decision he did to give his own family a chance.

Nicholas was a butcher in whose reign millions had died - not just in WWI. He ordered one of the largest pograms against the Jews for instance (many of those Jews migrated to the USA and many millions of others settled in Central Europe where they and/or their descendants became the victims of the holocaust).

Britain in early 1918 wasn't all sweetness and light but there were threats to that government as well. The country was war-weary and any suggestion of bringing Nicholas or any of the immediate family to Britain wouldn't have gone done well with the unions who were already setting up the decade that was to become the 1920s with strikes etc everywhere.

One of the positives though that came from that decision by George was his refusal to allow another first cousin to suffer an death at the hands of a military dictatorship and so Prince Andrew of Greece and his family, including a baby Prince Philip were rescued. Of course the royal family of Greece didn't have the bad press or history of the autocratic Romanovs.

No country wanted to have them. The Kaiser offered them safe passage through Germany to any western country who would take them but none would. Even the white army who were approaching Ekaterinburg when the family was killed couldn't agree on what to do with them if they rescued them - with some groups in the whites not even wanting to rescue them as they didn't want them back on the throne.

Nicholas' mother's Danish family took in his mother but made no offer of refuge to Nicholas and Denmark was officially neutral during the war. Sweden and Norway - also neutral and related to the Russian royal family also refused them refuge.

Why is it always George who is blamed when his country was at war with Germany at the time and in a state of unrest at home but other countries that weren't at war and were also related not blamed? Christian X of Denmark was as much Nicholas' first cousin as was George but he is never questioned about why he didn't offer refuge to his cousins. It is always blamed on George for some reason.
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« Reply #188 on: June 04, 2017, 01:06:09 pm »

ITA, you brought up important points thumbsup, the other European royals could have helped them but chose not to, the other royal families should equally share in the blame of the death of the Romanovs not just King George.
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leogirl
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« Reply #189 on: June 04, 2017, 08:17:50 pm »

So terrible that those innocent children were murdered like that.  thumbsdown
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« Reply #190 on: June 04, 2017, 09:19:12 pm »

Yes, their deaths were cruel.
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FrederickLouis
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« Reply #191 on: June 12, 2017, 02:51:30 am »

Tsar Nicholas II visited Denmark in 1901. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD1zpzS5HtQ
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« Reply #192 on: June 13, 2017, 07:37:46 pm »

Searching for the Tsars' treasure: Excavations begin near infamous concentration camp to find £200m loot Nazi troops stole from Russia's dazzling Amber Room in 1941

    German authorities in Thuringia approved the start of excavations in Nordhause
    Nazi German rocket scientists incarcerated slave labourers to build rockets used against Britain at former Dora-Mittelbau concentration camp in the area
    Authorities are looking for loot from the world-famous Amber Room of the Tsars
    The £200million treasure was stolen by Nazi German troops in Russia in 1941
    The loot disappeared in 1941 and its whereabouts have been unknown ever since


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4600512/Excavations-begin-Germany-200m-Amber-Room.html
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HRHOlya
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« Reply #193 on: June 19, 2017, 12:33:41 pm »

>> Romanov family photos now in color
Russian artist Olga Shirnina (also known as 'klimbim') colors archive images of Romanov family.
By Ksenia Isaeva, RBTH

https://cdn.rbth.com/all/2016/05/16/romanov/4.jpg

The Last Russian Emperor of the Romanov dynasty, Nicholas II with his family: his wife Alexandra, daughters Maria, Olga, Tatiana and Anastasia, and son Alexei. All of them together with their servants, court physician Eugene Botkin, maid Anna Demidova, footman Aloise Trupp and cook Ivan Kharitonov were killed by the Bolsheviks in Yekaterinburg on the night of July 16-17, 1918.

https://cdn.rbth.com/all/2016/05/16/romanov/13.jpg

Empress Alexandra Fyodorovna with daughters. / The children, four daughters and one son, were raised and educated together in the Imperial Palace.

https://cdn.rbth.com/all/2016/05/16/romanov/22.jpg

Nicholas II ruled from 1 November 1894 until his enforced abdication on 2 March 1917.

https://cdn.rbth.com/all/2016/05/16/romanov/12.jpg

Nikolai II's reign was marked by Russia's economic development and a simultaneous growth in its socio-political contradictions, revolutionary movements that ignited the 1905-1907 revolution and the 1917 revolution. It also caused the Russo-Japanese war and Russia's participation in World War I.

https://cdn.rbth.com/all/2016/05/16/romanov/26.jpg

Empress of Russia Alexandra Fyodorovna. / Alix of Hesse, the future Alexandra Fyodorovna, first visited Russia when her older sister Ella married Nikolai’s brother, Sergey Alexandrovich, and became Elizaveta Fyodorovna. The future spouses’ next meeting occurred 5 years later, when Alexandra Fyodorovna spent a month and a half visiting her sister in St. Petersburg.

https://cdn.rbth.com/all/2016/05/16/romanov/10.jpg

Grand Duchess Marie, 1906. / Princesses Maria and Anastasia were the youngest and most amicable daughters. Encouraged by Anastasia, Maria started to play tennis, which had become popular at the time. The girls would also get carried away with their jokes, knocking paintings and other valuable items from the palace walls.

https://cdn.rbth.com/all/2016/05/16/romanov/18.jpg

Grand Duchesses Olga and Tatiana in Livadia, Crimea. / Russia’s Black Sea Fleet was based in Sevastopol, Crimea in the 19th and 20th centuries. Russian tsars often visited Sevastopol to inspect the fleet and attend official meetings and military celebrations. Among the Romanov family, Nikolai II, his wife and kids visited Crimea the most frequently.

https://cdn.rbth.com/all/2016/05/16/romanov/19.jpg

Nikolai II and his family spent most of their time at Alexandrovsky Palace (Tsarskoye Selo) or Peterhof. In the summer, they spent vacations in the Crimean residence, Livadia Palace. Every year, the tsar also vacationed on the yacht “Standard”, sailing for two weeks at a time along the Gulf of Finland and the Baltic Sea.

https://cdn.rbth.com/all/2016/05/16/romanov/24.jpg

Grand Duchess Ksenia Alexandrovna. / Photo was taken at a grand fancy-dress ball that took place at the end of February 1903 in the Winter Palace, St. Petersburg (today’s Hermitage Museum), which was to be the last ball of tsarist Russia.

https://cdn.rbth.com/all/2016/05/16/romanov/16.jpg

Grand Duchess Elisabeth, often called Europe’s most beautiful princess,  1914. / Elizabeth (Elizabeth of Hesse-Darmstadt and by Rhine) was born a German princess and, after marriage, became Elizabeth Fyodorovna, Grand Duchess of the House of Romanovs. Throughout her life, she helped the suffering. After her martyrdom during the Russian revolution, Elizabeth was canonized as a saint. Today, a sculpture of her is located among the martyrs of the 20th century on the façade of Westminster Abbey in London. <<

https://www.rbth.com/multimedia/pictures/2016/05/17/romanov-family-now-in-color_593511

A comment from RD
"I've talked to her about how she does it. It's a bit cheating, though, technically - she takes a composite image of someone's face and pastes it on in photoshop, and manipulates it; versus actually coloring it digitally. Clever and looks realistic though!!"

These are also cool
" Photos of famous Russian ballet dancers now in color
Rare archival photos of Russia’s principal ballet dancers have now been colorized."
https://www.rbth.com/multimedia/pictures/2016/07/12/ballet-colored-images_609687

PS While I'm at it.. These too!
"Incredibly Colorized Pictures Show The Life Of Russian People In The Past"
http://designyoutrust.com/2016/04/incredibly-colorized-pictures-show-the-life-of-russian-people-in-the-past/
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 12:35:58 pm by HRHOlya » Logged
leogirl
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« Reply #194 on: June 20, 2017, 12:54:01 am »

That's really cool. It somehow makes it all seem more real seeing them in color like that.
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HRHOlya
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« Reply #195 on: June 20, 2017, 09:42:58 am »

^Yes! Black & white photos are supposed to be more flattering, but I find some of these coloured pics make the princesses (& tsar) look more stunning than in the b&w versions!

Maybe it's just me, but somehow the b&w pics make it all look so far away, like it's from such a different time that it's, I don't know, somehow "ungraspable", but the coloured pics make it more relatable, esp seeing the pics of everyday life of normal people.
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« Reply #196 on: June 21, 2017, 02:03:01 am »

The Dowager Empress Marie left Russia in 1919. She lived briefly with her nephew, King Christian X of Denmark. Did King Christian X offer Tsar Nicholas II, Tsarina Alexandra, and their children Denmark as a place of refuge to live if they would have departed from Russia?
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« Reply #197 on: June 21, 2017, 04:28:04 am »

As far as I am aware the only monarch who offered sanctuary at all was George V who then withdrew the offer over fears about how the offer would be received in the UK at the time given the anti-war feelings at the time and the very real threats to his own throne and family which some people prefer to dismiss but they were real at the time. Neither the Greek royals, the Danes nor the Norwegians offered help to the Romanovs at that time as far as any research I have come up with can show. IF a member of the family escaped they were helped but the help wasn't offered to Nicholas and his wife and family. They were despised throughout the world as a cruel despot and as such no one wanted them.

George V is often pilloried but he would be pilloried even more if he had taken them in and lost his own family and throne for the sake of someone who was seen as a murderous tyrant (quite a few millions had died as a result of Nicholas' policies in failed wars, in putting down riots and revolutions and in the 'concentration camps' utilised in Siberia. Stolypin's necktie was widely used to execute anyone who spoke out against the Tsar and his policies.
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« Reply #198 on: June 21, 2017, 04:33:16 am »

It was the government that offered asylum, but George V pressured parliament to withdraw the offer; more Windsorian meddling.
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« Reply #199 on: June 21, 2017, 04:46:28 am »

The Danish Royal family weren't in contact with the Tsar and his family in their captivity, (nor were any other royal families or their governments' representatives.) The plots to rescue the Tsar and the Imperial Family is a fascinating and contentious subject FL, and I really recommend some books on their imprisonment and fate, as well as the specific threads at places like the Alexander Palace Forum and The Royal Forums, where there are some very interesting discussions that have gone on regarding the whole saga.

Of course the subject of King George V's actions in 1917 are debatable to this day, and Alfonzo XIII of Spain was very active in trying to get the IF family freed. (He and the Pope offered to financially support the IF too, if they could be transported to Spain.)

 He received a letter from Victoria Battenberg (Alexandra's elder sister and Prince Philip's grandmother) after the fate of Alexandra and her children were known, in which she expresses her heartfelt gratitude to Alfonzo and contrasts his behaviour with that of George. It is a very interesting communication.

All the Royal relatives were frantic about the Tsar and his family as time went on and nothing became known. The Norwegian and Swedish Kings were written to by Alfonzo and others with regard to helping the family escape to northern ports.

As regards the Danes, there is a Danish book by Bent Jensen which charts the escape from Russia by British warship of the Dowager Empress Marie (Dagmar) and her daughters, and Marie's later life in Denmark in the 1920's. The author mentions many attempts by the DRF and the Danish Govt to get the King's cousin, aunt and their families out of danger.

 Interestingly, the neutral Danish Govt tried twice to get the German authorities to allow transportation of the IF from Russia, across Germany and into Denmark and they were twice denied. Denmark was of course a small country and not so influential in these situations as the British at that time, but it's notable that the Kaiser intimated to the British, with whom his nation was at war, that he would be amenable to facilitating that. The Danish envoy to Russia, Harald Scavenus, worked extremely hard throughout.

The Danes apparently tried the tack with the Russian Provincial Government, (Kerensky's Govt) that as Imperial titles no longer applied in Russia that the Dowager Marie had now reverted to the Princess Dagmar of Denmark and she and her family should be allowed to return to her homeland!

The King and Queen of Denmark sent 500,000 roubles to Russia in December 1917. This was ransom to release the four Grand Dukes. They were shot by the Bolsheviks in January 1919. They had sent 25,000 roubles for the release of the Empress in the September. The DRF was/is not a wealthy family and this no doubt meant a considerable financial sacrifice. Of course, as we know, Marie did escape Russia and did eventually live in Denmark, where she and the King clashed about her extravagance!

Personally, I believe that if Nicholas and Alexandra's relatives had managed to negotiate their freedom and that of their children, it would have had to have been early, before the fall of the Provisional Government and before Ekaterinburg. Once Kerensky sent the family to Siberia then they were doomed, IMO. Certainly once they were in the power of the Bolsheviks at Ekaterinburg, there was no way out.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 04:52:53 am by Rosella » Logged
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