Royal Gossip

Royal Families => various Royal Families => Topic started by: Earl Grey on April 05, 2011, 12:21:15 pm



Title: The Romanovs
Post by: Earl Grey on April 05, 2011, 12:21:15 pm
Some interesting docu's if you have got an afternoon to spare

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eAdBHwUr5w&feature=related\

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cjcD8KvXFE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxpRYuAsP_c&feature=related


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: danifaul on April 05, 2011, 12:42:39 pm
 :thankyou: Earl Grey

 :AWW:  http://www.alexanderpalace.com/palace/1913egg.html
http://theromanovfamilysite.webs.com/


King George V wanted to help his cousin Nicholas and the Romanovs  ??? is true ?


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: The Chocolate Princess on April 05, 2011, 01:51:32 pm
 ROYAL RUSSIA - THE ROMANOVS :sigh: (http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/royalty/russia/romanovs.html) an entire homepage about them. with pictures and descriptions of all palaces.

I love St. Petersburg. :flirt: It is amazing what the Russians created, -again- :rolleyes: even after it all got destroyed in WW2.  Seeing (and even partying) in their palaces I know that no splendor will ever dazzle me as the Romanov palaces. France has Versaille-which is kinda impressive, but Russia has St. Petersburg, Zarskoje Selo and Peterhof. :o  I've never seen so much gold and splendor on so many places. Before WW2 the outside and even the roofs of the Katharinenpalast HERE   (http://www.petersburg-info.de/bildergalerie/bildergalerie1.html)were covered with real gold. :- Now it's just gold paint.    -the worst part: you get used to it. :shy: Coming back to other palaced I felt like entering a three Star hotel :-X It is also why I don't envy Kate Middleton. Domestic bliss is something that has to do with safety, comfort and heartiness. <3 A gold spoon cannot comfort you. :sigh:


It is a shame that the Romanovs are ALL dead :sob:


King George V wanted to help his cousin Nicholas and the Romanovs  ??? is true ?
No :thumbsdown:  Though George V and Tsar Nicholas II were cousins. -even his wife Alexandra was his distant cousins.
The Tsar and his immediate family were arrested and negotiations began to find a place of overseas exile. After the revolution in 1917 the British standpoint was that ‘every measure must be taken to ensure the family’s safety’ :blabla: Meanwhile in Britain there were growing concerns about the impacts of receiving the Romanovs on their turf... but because King George was concerned that the left-winged working class wouldn't like it, he changed his mind and denied them refugee. From that moment their destiny was doomed and they all got executed in a cellar where they have been held. :-X When a memorial service was held for tsar Nicholas in London, George V refused to attend or send a representative :bored:
There was no othe country which could have offered assylum to the Romanovs. Though Germany had always had the strongest ties to them...after losing WW1 all aristos got stripped of their rights and titles. There was no safe passage because it was occupied by Russians/French/etc.

but the BRF learned from it... I think they gave refugee to the grandmother of Prince Philip the Duke of Edingburg.  (Son of King Georg I. of Greece + Alice von Battenberg in 1922)


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on April 05, 2011, 02:39:22 pm
^^

P. Phillipe is the son of Prince Andrew of Greece. His grandmother as you say was a Romanov and before marrying she was called Grand Duchess Olga.  kisss

I've heard the same version. And to think that Q. Mary then bought jewels from the dowager empress and didn't pay her!  :ick:

Off topic but the Romanovs do not have a drop of Romanov blood do they?


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: The Chocolate Princess on April 05, 2011, 04:00:19 pm
I forgot how old Philip is :KEZZA: I assumed it must have been his granny


And to think that Q. Mary then bought jewels from the dowager empress and didn't pay her!  :ick:


Here's a link: but I am sure it doesn't show all pieces Mary purchased  (http://www.royal-magazin.de/russia/marie-feodorovna-pearls.htm)
After the Revolution of 1917, the Crown Jewels were confiscated. During 1922 the intensive job of listing and photographing everything took almost four months and was conducted by five of Russia's leading jewellers. Some of the collection was sold to a consortium of British and American buyers, whose identity is unknown. One hundred and nineteen of the jewels sold to this syndicate were offered for sale by Christie's in London on March 1927 at a sale. [source] (http://www.royal-magazin.de/russia/tsarina-dress-ornaments.htm)
 I would say that a lot of the Romanov gems are in the UK and Europe, but not that the majority of them are in the BRF's hands. Some may have been dispersed through further auctions and sales so it's hard to know exactly how many there are. There is talk that after empress Maria Feodorovna's death, Queen Mary bought some of the jewels very secretly by a lawyer. :spy: -it would now been in QE's private collection.

I've spend new-years eve at the palace of Michel Kent's ancestors and the Lady there shown me where they hid the jewellery (including Lady Diana's Lovers knot tiara) The story is totally fascinating :wo: how a friend of them sewed the jewellery into his coat and traveled to England looking poor and unsuspicious.

the Romanovs do not have a drop of Romanov blood do they?

Besides Dagma of Denmark all women came from German royal families. But all brides had to change their name and confession.  It is all pretty weird because they had their (real) birth name and their 'official' name. (http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e329/The_Chocolate_Princess/smilies/huhsmileyf3.gif)
Princess Sophie von Württemberg -> took the name 'Maria Fjodorowna ' Portrait (look at the jewellery) (http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/77/Maria_Feodorovna_by_Kramskoj.jpg)
Princess Marie von Hessen-Darmstadt  -> Marija Alexandrowna Portrait (description of jewellery) (http://www.royal-magazin.de/russia/marie-alexandrovna/marie-alexandrovna-jewels.htm)
 
Karl Peter von Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorf became Russian Emperor Peter III. because his aunt had no heir. Like Queen Victoria married Prince Albert von Sachsen,  the British Royal Family was called "of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" before they changed their name to Windsor. Not sure but I guess the new name of the Romanovs was "Romanov-Holstein-Gottorf"
Peter III. married Princess Sophie von Anhalt-Zerbst-Dornburg  -they changed her name into 'Jekaterina Alexejewna'  also known as Catherine 'the great'

family tree(in German) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/a/a4/Stammbaum_Romanow.JPG)


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on April 05, 2011, 04:13:36 pm
^^
No I meant that after Catherine the Great there were no real Romanovs as her son was not Peter III's son. So I was asking if afterwards any emperor married someone with real romanov blood?

How great it must have been! I would have loved to see that. You were very lucky!  :worship:

But I think that the Lover's knots was a creation of Q.Mary and the one you mention was bought by Imelda Marcos. I agree the queen must have such a secret stash of jewels. Q. Mary loved to buy them and Q.Elizabeth received all the jewels from Mrs. Greville. Plus many jewels from Q. Alexandra  :o

They have two names because they had to change their religion so when they were christened they got a russian one. Moreover in Russia your "surname" is your father name. But as many names couldn't be "russified" they used Feodor because it was the patron of the Romanovs (I've read so take it with a grain of salt  ;))so we have for example Marie Fedorovna that was daughter of Christian  :tehe:


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on April 05, 2011, 04:15:09 pm
Quote
I've heard the same version. And to think that Q. Mary then bought jewels from the dowager empress and didn't pay her!  :ick:


The BRF snagged many after the death of the Dowager.

Quote
Off topic but the Romanovs do not have a drop of Romanov blood do they?
[/quote]

Their lineage is dominantly German and Prussian; mainly since the Romanovs married foreign brides and then diluted their Russian lineage.

Quote
It is a shame that the Romanovs are ALL dead


Alive, but the main branch and several others were butchered. They're still distant though and succession has been hotly disputed.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on April 05, 2011, 04:26:00 pm
I've edited  :sorry: But Kuei but Catherine the Great's son was not Romanov!

TCP you were right his granny was the Romanov! But she was married to George I not Alice. Princess Alice married Prince Andrew son of Olga and George. And they were the parents of Philip.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on April 05, 2011, 08:07:18 pm
Quote
But Kuei but Catherine the Great's son was not Romanov!

Which technically calls into question who should be sitting on the Russian Throne, for all that it's empty and technically the Russian people are no longer subjects. I did watch a documentary on YouTube about the Imperial history and it's interesting that the Romanovs were the ones who actually instituted serfdom. Unnerving. The child between Catherine and her lover was part of the Russian aristocratic lineage, but if the child is not a Romanov and part of the imperial line, then it is quite the issue since the current descendants may not have any right to any of the titles that they hold as Russian royalties.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: danifaul on April 06, 2011, 02:07:43 pm
 'No  :thumbsdown: Though George V and Tsar Nicholas II were cousins.''
TCP :thankyou: Yes, it is uncanny indeed  :think:

Quote:'When Tsar Nicholas II of Russia, George's first cousin (their mothers were sisters), was overthrown in the Russian Revolution of 1917,
the British Government offered asylum to the Tsar and his family, but worsening conditions for the British people, and fears that revolution might come
to the British Isles, led George to think that the presence of the Russian royals might seem inappropriate under the circumstances.
Despite the later claims of Lord Mountbatten of Burma that David Lloyd George, the Prime Minister, was opposed to the rescue of the
Russian imperial family, the letters of the King's private secretary, Lord Stamfordham, suggest that it was George V who opposed the
rescue against the advice of the government.Advanced planning for a rescue was undertaken by MI1, a branch of the British secret service,
but because of the strengthening position of the Bolshevik revolutionaries and wider difficulties with the conduct of the war,
the plan was never put into operation.The Tsar and his immediate family remained in Russia, where they were murdered by Bolsheviks in 1918.
The following year, Nicholas's mother (George's aunt) Maria Feodorovna (Dagmar of Denmark) and other members of the extended Russian imperial family
were rescued from the Crimea by British ships.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_V_of_the_United_Kingdom

"In search of exile elsewhere, Lloyd George offered a haven in Britain, only for the offer to be withdrawn under the direction of King George V , who did not wish to be associated with his autocratic cousin at this point: a controversial decision." http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/nicholasii.htm


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: tequiero on April 06, 2011, 03:19:55 pm

 The story is totally fascinating :wo: how a friend of them sewed the jewellery into his coat and traveled to England looking poor and unsuspicious.


It's well known that when Russian aristocrats were escaping, they had jewells sewed into their clothes. There is an anegdote (from a true story) that one daughter of a countess weighed twice more than usuall when her family boarded a ship.

What is more, when the Tsar and his family were being killed, the bullets couldn't puncture their bodies because they all had some jewells sewed into clothes, especially all the grand duchesses in their corsets.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: karla64 on April 06, 2011, 04:10:53 pm
Thank you for the links.. It is very interesting about history of Romanov royal family....It is my favorite royal family England  and Russia..

karla64

  :thumbsup:


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on April 06, 2011, 09:58:33 pm
Quote
"In search of exile elsewhere, Lloyd George offered a haven in Britain, only for the offer to be withdrawn under the direction of King George V , who did not wish to be associated with his autocratic cousin at this point: a controversial decision." http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/nicholasii.htm

Which shows why royals have no business meddling in politics and another example of the House of Windsor worrying more about it's image than it's humanity. I cannot believe that the Windsors did this, even though I've read about it time and time again.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on April 07, 2011, 03:29:38 pm
Quote
But Kuei but Catherine the Great's son was not Romanov!

Which technically calls into question who should be sitting on the Russian Throne, for all that it's empty and technically the Russian people are no longer subjects. I did watch a documentary on YouTube about the Imperial history and it's interesting that the Romanovs were the ones who actually instituted serfdom. Unnerving. The child between Catherine and her lover was part of the Russian aristocratic lineage, but if the child is not a Romanov and part of the imperial line, then it is quite the issue since the current descendants may not have any right to any of the titles that they hold as Russian royalties.

I've looked up this and most consider that he was in fact a legitimate son although Catherine wrote in her diary that he was the son of her lover at that moment. I've always read the illegitmate theory and from what I know of Catherine's husband I still have my doubts.

Kuei if the father doesn't say that the son/daughter is not his, even if he is not the father in reality it is considered to be a legitimate descendent. 


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on April 09, 2011, 05:47:33 pm
I see now. Does anyone remember the one Tsar that was assassinated by Catherine, the one called Ivan VI? Supposedly she didn't directly order his death, but she instead reimposed the order decreed by Empress Elizabeth that if in the event of an escape attempt by Ivan or anyone on his behalf, Ivan was to be killed; in the event of illness, a priest, but no doctor.


Title: George Mikhailovich of Russia
Post by: D.I.R. on May 07, 2011, 01:33:25 am
http://www.trueknowledge.com/q/facts_about__george_mikhailovich_of_russia

http://www.imperialhouse.ru/eng/allnews/articles.html

He's living life comfortably he's one chunky monkey  :cookie: Pic: http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/3911/legitimist.7/0_1eda8_6aada8b4_L.jpg


Title: George Mikhailovich of Russia
Post by: Nighthawk on May 07, 2011, 02:03:03 am
for one being chunky he sure is a cutie pie, thanks for the info DIR


Title: George Mikhailovich of Russia
Post by: D.I.R. on May 07, 2011, 06:45:12 am
de nada NightHawk :) yeah he's cute looking & classy. Bet you his mama & grandmama are extra protective of him and the type of girls he see. He needs to get their approval of a girl just to date him. hehehe.


Title: George Mikhailovich of Russia
Post by: Kuei Fei on May 07, 2011, 07:06:44 am
The dethroned dynasties are really protective of who their offspring date or marry. Not like the reigning royalties.


Title: George Mikhailovich of Russia
Post by: D.I.R. on May 08, 2011, 05:24:24 am
Yes they are but then some are not. Like the Italian Princes for example.
The reigning "royals" whatever royals are these days are too cocky and confident that they think that they can do anything everything to their hearts content.They just don't know that its the collective (aristo's) that keep them there as their mouth piece or puppet whatever however it is you see it.


Title: George Mikhailovich of Russia
Post by: Kuei Fei on May 08, 2011, 05:51:24 am
de nada NightHawk :) yeah he's cute looking & classy. Bet you his mama & grandmama are extra protective of him and the type of girls he see. He needs to get their approval of a girl just to date him. hehehe.

How long until Kate pushes Pippa at him? It would be interesting to see them try to break through, since the Romanovs are among the most secretive of royal families and also the most 'blended in.' Almost no one knows who they are and all have careers and insanely downkey lifestyles. You almost never hear of them and until know, few (except Russian history buffs) have seen photos of George or know anything about the dynastic quarrels going on.


Title: George Mikhailovich of Russia
Post by: Dahlia on May 08, 2011, 10:58:35 am
http://www.spletnik.ru/blogs/govoryat_chto/3626_cesarevich_i_velikij_knyaz_georgij_mixajlovich

With pretty photos of his mother "Empress" Maria.


Title: George Mikhailovich of Russia
Post by: Alexandrine on May 08, 2011, 12:51:07 pm
Thank you Dahlia in one of the photos she looks like Elizabeth Taylor.


Title: George Mikhailovich of Russia
Post by: Kuei Fei on May 08, 2011, 05:03:02 pm
Here's a really hilarious story I read:

Some time after the marriage, after George was born, her husband came home and found his suitcases in the hallway, packed and neatly arranged.





Title: George Mikhailovich of Russia
Post by: Dahlia on May 08, 2011, 09:09:06 pm
You´re welcome Alexandrine!  :flower:


Why did they split?


Title: George Mikhailovich of Russia
Post by: Kuei Fei on May 08, 2011, 10:48:51 pm
I truly don't know. In the biography, Maria just threw him out.

In terms of royal bachelorhood, he is highly eligible since he is (in theory and lineage despite the dispute) Heir directly after the current Pretender Maria. This is why I am often unimpressed with the claims of people like Pippa when the tabloids tout them as 'the most eligible...' and why I am disgusted that William married Kate; he could have had his pick of Romanov princesses/grand duchesses and other assorted Eastern European princesses.

But then, this is what happens when you let the tabloids run the culture.

His mother must keep him in some sort of lockdown or at least surrounded by family so he isn't taken advantage of by social climbing females.


Title: George Mikhailovich of Russia
Post by: Vicki on May 08, 2011, 11:31:41 pm
Kuei Fei, Pippa or any other commoner has no chance with him. Romanov house law prohibits unequal marriages. He has to marry someone who is of Royal blood. 

His parents split because his father (Prince of Prussia) renaged on the agreement that his son will be Russian prince and not Prussian. Apparently, he has secretly registered him as Prussian Prince. 

 


Title: George Mikhailovich of Russia
Post by: Dahlia on May 08, 2011, 11:36:44 pm
Thanks KF and Vicki!  :thankyou:

Because of this they split? I thought dynasty affairs would have been discussed before the wedding.


Title: George Mikhailovich of Russia
Post by: Vicki on May 08, 2011, 11:48:57 pm
Thanks KF and Vicki!  :thankyou:

Because of this they split? I thought dynasty affairs would have been discussed before the wedding.
You are welcome. They have not only discussed this but signed the document as well.  I suppose Maria and her father thought that it was a very dishonest thing to do...


Title: George Mikhailovich of Russia
Post by: Kuei Fei on May 09, 2011, 12:58:28 am
Because of this they split? I thought dynasty affairs would have been discussed before the wedding.

Who knows.

Another interesting facet is, that maybe the marriage was settled by both sides and then all of a sudden, the Prince reneged. Either way, it's causing problems within the Romanov family.


Title: George Mikhailovich of Russia
Post by: Earth Angel on May 09, 2011, 02:08:38 am
^^^ I understand the dilemma, but this boy is now a man and can make his own decisions. It appears he has chosen Russia, but what I don't understand is why he cannot potentially be considered heir of both realms, as they're both defunct royal houses and technically a decision didn't have to be made for him, but by him, when he was old enough to do so. And I've wondered whether or not this marriage was just for the convenience of producing an heir that met the strict laws of Russia's royal succession? ...


Title: George Mikhailovich of Russia
Post by: Kuei Fei on May 09, 2011, 03:56:34 am
Quote
And I've wondered whether or not this marriage was just for the convenience of producing an heir that met the strict laws of Russia's royal succession? ...

It's most likely. In the Eastern countries/royalties, they are brutally pragmatic about lineage and suitability and usually (I think) factor in romance after the practical things are worked out. 

Interestingly, the Romanovs view 'commoners' as those who are not royal, but have titles. For them, House Law is still important and I think that is how they've survived as long as they have despite the butchery of the revolution.


Title: George Mikhailovich of Russia
Post by: D.I.R. on May 09, 2011, 03:48:02 pm
de nada NightHawk :) yeah he's cute looking & classy. Bet you his mama & grandmama are extra protective of him and the type of girls he see. He needs to get their approval of a girl just to date him. hehehe.

How long until Kate pushes Pippa at him? It would be interesting to see them try to break through, since the Romanovs are among the most secretive of royal families and also the most 'blended in.' Almost no one knows who they are and all have careers and insanely downkey lifestyles. You almost never hear of them and until know, few (except Russian history buffs) have seen photos of George or know anything about the dynastic quarrels going on.

 lol yeah I don't see that happenin' The Midds connection is in the UK Aristo's not the main landers. And George connections is in the Med (Mediterranean) he's protected there. But it would be funny if the Midds tried. That's a whole other ball game over there. As Leti can contests to it. He must of meet a lot of Spanish princess there & yes there is a lot of princesses that are not famous nor want to be. They believe in what they have been brought up to be.

Not like these low ranking aristo's and commoners that married into certain families when its all about celebrity and making an income off their fame.

Your right you almost never hear about him & the Romanov clan for a reason to the outside world.  :sigh:


Title: George Mikhailovich of Russia
Post by: Earth Angel on May 09, 2011, 06:04:33 pm
I thought I'd let those interested know that Georgiy isn't so much of a chunk these days. He's more of a hunk now.

And while on the topic of the Romanovs, I figured I'd add a synopsis about the House of Romanov parameters for elevating people in rank and nobility, as such explains why the elevation of Kate & Co. seems so wrong. The Middletons are neither civil servants nor have they served their country in times of war. One unsung hero in the family (Kate's grandfather) cannot be seen as justification for the family's newfound elevation. He was an UNSUNG HERO, which makes his newly declared sacrifices for his country suspect to sensationlism. If e was so important then, and known to Prince Philip, then why wasn't he, himself, elevated into the nobility?  Bestowing titles is supposed to signify more than social status and years of blind servicing of the needs of a future king. The British have got this ancient system *butt* backwards!  :wellduh:

Quote
Granting noble status is neither a trend nor anything new. Peter the Great created in 1722 the Table of Ranks, which opened the pathway to noble status to anyone from any social class—to any person who distinguished himself in military or civil service. Before the Revolution, being awarded noble status conveyed with it certain privileges. But after the abolition of serfdom in 1861, these privileges began to decrease or become entirely fictional. If the monarchy had not fallen in 1917, all of the privileges enjoyed by the nobility would likely have gone away. This can be seen in the monarchies that survive today. Grand Duchess Maria Wladimirovna has repeatedly said that there can be no question about the revival of these privileges, even if someday the monarchy in Russia should be restored. In the modern world, the nobility is not a privileged class, but rather a state of mind. The nobility remains a living corporate entity and includes some of the best representatives of society. The only historically valid source for awarding noble status is the legitimate head of a historic Imperial or Royal dynasty. In Russia, there are very few instances of awarding noble status at the present time—literally, just a handful of instances. But according to the historical statutes of the several Imperial Orders of knighthood, knights of the fourth, third, and second classes automatically receive personal noble status, which is extended also to the knights’ spouses; and knights of the first class receive hereditary noble status, which extends also to their children. As I already said, knights of the Imperial Orders are not only high-ranking persons, but also ordinary people. That is also the way it was in the Russian Empire, only then the number of awardees was far greater than now. Of course, one can as a rule bestow noble status only to people of commoner status, to people of worker or peasant backgrounds, because nobles already have noble status. One must understand, however, that noble status is not some pretty game but is, before anything else, a responsibility to the state and to society. And if someone offers to sell you a patent of nobility, a title, or the right to wear a medal—well, you should know that there are crooks everywhere. A bogus noble patent brings no one any honor. Just shame and ridicule.



Title: George Mikhailovich of Russia
Post by: Vicki on May 09, 2011, 07:19:55 pm
^^^ I understand the dilemma, but this boy is now a man and can make his own decisions. It appears he has chosen Russia, but what I don't understand is why he cannot potentially be considered heir of both realms, as they're both defunct royal houses and technically a decision didn't have to be made for him, but by him, when he was old enough to do so. And I've wondered whether or not this marriage was just for the convenience of producing an heir that met the strict laws of Russia's royal succession? ...
I'm pretty sure it was arranged. Its very hard to meet the requirements of Romanov House law. I don't see the problem either but something must be written in the house law about this....


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Earth Angel on May 09, 2011, 11:05:10 pm
^^^The House of Romanov only survived as such since it was decided to carry the name in the female line: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Romanov

Technically the House of Romanov is as fictitious a name as the House of Windsor. It is more accurately the House of Oldenberg and the extra chromosone, carried by Tsar Nicholas II is their most signifying genetic marker. Through various marriages throughout history, the family is more Oldenberg than anything else, with the unofficial name being Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov.

To me and some historians, it doesn't really matter whether or not Catherine the Great's son was a legitimate Romanov, as the Romanov blood was German/Prussian blood, just as the Oldenbergs were also of German origin. It's really irrelevent whether or not the originating Romanov blood is running through the veins of the existing Romanovs, as some of the "Romanov" genetic markers are there one way or another. ...


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on May 20, 2011, 05:43:25 am
Quote
It is more accurately the House of Oldenberg and the extra chromosone, carried by Tsar Nicholas II is their most signifying genetic marker. Through various marriages throughout history, the family is more Oldenberg than anything else, with the unofficial name being Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov.

I did chat with someone who is a member and he told me that Maria Vladimirovna is not considered the Curatrix of the Throne, since they recently did a huge genealogical study and here's the new announcement:

Quote
At this time, only the Holstein-Oldenburg family can claim a direct lineage to the Russian Imperial Romanoff dynasty.
 
The House of Holstein-Oldenburg traces its lineage to the Russian Imperial Family to the year 1725 when the oldest daughter of Peter the Great, Princess Anna Petrovna, married the Herzog von Holstein, Carl Friedrich.  Their son, born in 1742, was baptized in the Russian Orthodox faith and was crowned Czar Peter III in 1761.
 
Since there were no male descendants of the Romanoff family, Peter III assumed his reign under the Romanoff dynasty name which continuously ruled until 1917 in Russia.  Thus, the Holstein branch of the Oldenburg family ruled Russia as the Romanoff dynasty.
 
Currently a descendant of the Holstein-Oldenburg family, Herzog Huno von Oldenburg resides at his estate in Schleswig-Holstein, Germany, and takes a great interest in the Russian Imperial heritage.

http://www.russiannobility.org/Default.asp?page=23


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Earth Angel on May 20, 2011, 01:09:00 pm
^^^ That's interesting KF! I'm surprised she has no Oldenburg blood. However, that is not the deciding factor for curatrix, under Russian law. Maria is most certainly considered the curatrix by the current Russian government and the Russian Orthodox church and I don't see that changing.People have been contesting her claims since the beginning, but she has always prevailed. However, this could prove to be quite a battle for recognition, if this man pursues in court. Especially Georgiy probably has Oldenburg DNA from his fathers side of the family. It's in their family tree at least.  :think:


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on May 21, 2011, 03:06:18 am
My contact told me that he himself did an independent investigation and that they went as far back as they could.

Quote
That's interesting KF! I'm surprised she has no Oldenburg blood. However, that is not the deciding factor for curatrix, under Russian law. Maria is most certainly considered the curatrix by the current Russian government and the Russian Orthodox church and I don't see that changing.People have been contesting her claims since the beginning, but she has always prevailed.


I always wondered why she is so disliked, but a part of it, as far as I read (in the Massie books "Romanovs: The Final Chapter") that it's a matter of succession, but also ambition. Prince Nicholas (one contender) states that he sees Russia as "just plain tired and that a restoration, any restoration would in fact be impossible because it would simpy add more stress to an already disorganized/fragile government" and that he would prefer to not return  and said that "Russia has much greater problems that need to be dealt with and we must all move forward."

Maria, on the other hand, frequently goes to Russia and is lauded, seems eager to have a restoration done and with her son as Heir. She has a good claim, since she is after all a direct descendent of Grand Duke Vladimir, but on the other hand, she isn't herself a Grand Duchess, since the last one the Romanovs consider a Grand Duchess was Olga Alexandrovna, sister of Nicholas II. Maria seems determined to make herself as prominent as possible and also has been working to get her son on a throne. She keeps bringing up the past as well and I wonder if she's using the past as weapon to basically get what she wants out of the Russian government.



Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Earth Angel on May 21, 2011, 03:53:09 am
Although some think Maria's claims are dubious and she does appear ambitious, she has not been pushing the Russian Government. Boris Yeltsin's retinue came up with a plan for the restoration of the monarchy in the 1990's. I believe he even sent one of his delegates to tutor/mentor Georgiy while he was growing up. And if I remember correctly, the stated target year is 2013. ...

I wouldn't underestimate the Russian government. They've been giving back powers to the Orthodox Church, in what looks like a planned and controlled successive re-establishment of tradition. It's the government's plan, that much I'm sure of, and I think Maria is just playing her part. ...


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on May 21, 2011, 06:29:58 am
Interesting to say the least.

I just wonder though, with the rest of the Romanovs against her, would the government support a restoration with the infighting that is going on right now? There should be some sort of settlement and 'treaty' that will ensure that the Romanovs are no longer competing and no longer loathing each other over one claiment over another. It's how the imperial house fell, because of constant internal conflicts and warfare over the succession.

Quote
I wouldn't underestimate the Russian government.


I certainly do not. I just wonder how on earth would a restoration be successful if the Romanovs can't even agree on a successor that they would all stand behind? to me it is Maria VS the rest of the Romanovs.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Grace and Diana Fan on June 01, 2011, 12:30:36 pm
What is the difference between a Duchess and a Grand Duchess? Duke and Grand Duke? What are the differences? I have also heard of Grand Prince.

 ???


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Earth Angel on June 01, 2011, 06:49:25 pm
For Russia, Grand Duke is the english translation of the Grand Prince title, which is a higher rank than a Duke and/or just a Prince. In Russia, the Grand Duke (Prince) titles are reserved for the mainline, imperial family, whereas the junior members, not in line for inheritance of a duchy or principality don't get the "grand" in their title. ...


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on June 01, 2011, 07:24:43 pm
What is the difference between a Duchess and a Grand Duchess? Duke and Grand Duke? What are the differences? I have also heard of Grand Prince.???

Well, right under Grand Duke and Duchess, is Prince and Princess, then the rest of them with the lesser titles. A huge number of the Russian Grand Dukes were butchered in the Revolution and barely any are left who could legitimately refer to themselves as Grand Dukes and Duchesses. I'm still shocked when I read about how many died at the hands of the Bolsheviks. All the claimants to the Throne all have a huge question mark around their claims though, since each one has one problem or another around their status according to House Law. I'm surprised that the Romanovs have yet to really settle the issue.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Earth Angel on June 01, 2011, 07:43:05 pm
Maria's claim is the strongest, as the contentions don't hold up in court. Those being:

1.) The marriage of Maria's grandparents without the Tsar's permission, as they were first cousins, which is against house rules, but not house law. However, Nicholas later gave approval and allowed them back into the country, reversing his original disownment, nullifying the order of banishment and restoring their status.

Quote
The marriage caused a scandal in the courts of European royalty as Princess Victoria was divorced from her first husband, Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig of Hesse, also her first cousin. The Grand Duke of Hesse's sister was Tsarina Alexandra Fyodorovna, the wife of Nicholas II. The Tsarina already disliked her former sister-in-law and first cousin, being instrumental in leading the opposition to the marriage in the Russian court. Shortly after returning to Russia, the Tsar stripped Cyril of his imperial allowance and style Imperial Highness, his honours and decorations, his position in the navy and then banished him from Russia.[3][4]
However in 1908, after the death of Grand Duke Alexei Alexandrovich had put Cyril third in the line of succession to the Imperial Throne, Nicholas II restored Cyril to his rank of Captain in the Imperial Russian Navy and his position as aide de camp to the emperor.[5] His wife came into favor, and was given the title Grand Duchess of Russia and from then on was styled as Her Imperial Highness Grand Duchess Viktoria Feodorovna.

2.) Maria's mother was from Georgia's House of Bagration which was deposed by the Russians, thus contenders state that marriage was unequal since the house was no longer a recognized dynasty, only a noble house of the Russian nobility. However, The Bagrations were given back their status in 1783, thus that argument really doesn't hold either.

Quote
Some controversy therefore arises as to whether Vladimir's marriage to Leonida was equal or morganatic, and therefore whether his claim to the Imperial throne passed to his daughter Maria or out of his branch of the family upon his death. The position of both Vladimir and Maria is that the marriage was equal, and Vladimir's claim passed to Maria. Grand Duchess Leonida Georgievna, the daughter of the Head of the Georgian Royal House, H.R.H. Prince George Alexandrovich Bagration-Mukhrani. The royal status of the House of Bagration was permanently recognized by Russia in the Treaty of Georgievsk of 1783 and was confirmed by the Decree of 5 December 1946 issued by the Head of the Russian Imperial House.

The only other claimant's lineage violates the laws, not just the house rules, so which claim is stronger of the two? The Russian government and Orthodox Church decided that Maria's was stronger. The Romanov's aren't really in a huge fight over this. One man, the pretender, is against it and other's backed him initially, but not so much anymore, as he does not have a legitimate claim. ...


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on June 01, 2011, 08:38:08 pm
Not bad. I wonder how smothered George feels, living under his mother's wing, plus that of his grandmother as well. All that 'petticoat influence' and what not; I bet he wanted to go to the naval academy, but from what I read on here there were fears of bullying and so he's stuck getting his cheeks pinched and sipping tea while doing who knows what else.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Earth Angel on June 01, 2011, 10:13:45 pm
Sadly, Georgiy's grandmother died last year, but she has influenced him alot. At the beginning of this thread there's a link to Maria's website which has additional links to interviews, etc. ...

Georgiy isn't so much under Maria's thumb anymore, he lives his own life, yet he restricts himself for the purposes of maintaining succession rights.  He's a very mature and responsible person. And he even has a real job!


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Earth Angel on June 01, 2011, 10:49:19 pm
Here's the direct link to Maria's page:
http://www.imperialhouse.ru/eng/index.html

The Alexander Palace Time Machine forum also has alot of information on past & present happenings.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on June 02, 2011, 04:00:10 am
Sadly, Georgiy's grandmother died last year, but she has influenced him alot. At the beginning of this thread there's a link to Maria's website which has additional links to interviews, etc. ...

Georgiy isn't so much under Maria's thumb anymore, he lives his own life, yet he restricts himself for the purposes of maintaining succession rights.  He's a very mature and responsible person. And he even has a real job!

Apparently he turned thirty in March, the fifteenth.


Title: Who Is Head of the House of Romanov?
Post by: Kuei Fei on October 12, 2011, 01:42:14 am
Who do you think has the right to headship of the House of Romanov? There's "Grand Duke" Georgi Mikhailovich and then there is Prince Rotislav. This is one thing that has been in dispute since the death of the main branch of the Imperial Family and there is such an interesting debate. It's like "Grand Duchess" Marie is on one side with the rest of the Romanovs on the other.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on March 31, 2012, 05:49:04 pm
Workers restoring former Russian mansion find massive treasure hoard wrapped in newspaper from 1917

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2123081/Workers-restoring-Russian-mansion-massive-treasure-hoard-wrapped-newspaper-1917.html#ixzz1qiKBTOih


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on March 31, 2012, 08:36:16 pm
The Romanovs are interestingly, the most openly secretive family in the world. People know who they are, but they are also at the same time, very impossible to get into contact with. I mean, they are nearly impenetrable to socialize with unless born into that set.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on January 02, 2013, 10:27:37 pm
I went shopping today and found that there is a book about a woman who says that she is Grand Duchess Olga and that she didn't die in 1918 with the rest of the family. From what I was able to read some of the Romanovs believed that she was Olga and she had personal objects that had belonged to Olga.

There was an interesting tidbit where she says that the execution wasn't as it was told as the woman lived at least for three months more as they were sent to another place to live.

This is the supposed explanation of why the Church doesn't believe the bodies are of Nicholas and the rest of the family.

Marga Boodts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marga_Boodts


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on February 08, 2013, 01:23:51 am
What do you guys think it would be like if it turned out that there was a real survivor and the descendant was exposed? If someone was in fact revealed to be a direct descendent of one of the members of the Imperial Family, how do you guys think that the world would react?


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: YooperModerator on February 09, 2013, 01:54:50 am
Err mostly ppl would go" whatever just another rich kid.....next!"
A couple of history bufs might be facinated but unless he/she brings along more then just a dna conection to them i doubt ppl would care much
Now if he/she could sing or act as well and be pretty then they might get the general public intrested but otherwise...


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HC on February 09, 2013, 12:08:24 pm
I don't think anyone should feel sad for Maria Feodorovna (Dagmar of Denmark).

Apparently she had such a difficult personality that the english royals was reliefed when she returned to Denmark. And the danish royals also had a hard time managing her. She was allegdedly also a *critical person* of jews. Not a nice person.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexander on February 09, 2013, 04:21:42 pm
I don't know Dagmar had just seen her whole world crumble down around her. She watched her husband get shot, HC, not many people remember that but she did. She saw the influence Rasputin had and warned against it multiple times, she gave valuable advice to her son that he refused to listen to, She had seen the death of all of her sons, the death of her grandchildren... I think she was allowed to be difficult in some respects.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on February 09, 2013, 05:17:43 pm
Dagmar could have a difficult personality but she lost nearly all her family, so very difficult to not feel pity for her.

Also interesting to know how much guilty played in the british family desire to get rid of her. I've never read much about Dagmar so I don't know if her relationship with her british family was strained due to the lack of help from them during the revolution.



Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HC on February 09, 2013, 06:07:48 pm
These are very sympatic thoughts. And it must have been devastating for her to see most of her family die.

But she had a huge responsibility watching the russian people starve while she and her family got their laundry washed and cleansed in Paris...

Not to mention their palaces covered in gold and diamonds.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HC on February 09, 2013, 06:32:19 pm
I don't know Dagmar had just seen her whole world crumble down around her. She watched her husband get shot, HC, not many people remember that but she did. She saw the influence Rasputin had and warned against it multiple times, she gave valuable advice to her son that he refused to listen to, She had seen the death of all of her sons, the death of her grandchildren... I think she was allowed to be difficult in some respects.

As I understand her father in law died in a bombing because he wanted to make things better for the population. Her husbond overtook the throne and was much more conservative and didn't want to follow up on his fathers reformprogram. Apparently Dagmar agreed in that.

Her husbond died from a disease.

2 of her sons died young one of them was the zar. 2 sons and 2 daughters outlived her. 



Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on June 16, 2013, 06:24:19 pm
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/7df128ae9ebc99751eb9458e8745d12f/tumblr_mo8iuf1BW51qbioujo1_500.gif)

Grand Duchesses Olga, Tatiana, Maria, Anastasia and Tsarevich Alexei of Russia


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: serene grace on June 16, 2013, 09:43:05 pm
Love the GIF, Alexandrine. I love footage of them, it's beautiful, yet so haunting because of what happened to them.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on June 16, 2013, 10:22:14 pm
Just think, all those kids butchered in a hail of Bolshevik bullets.

WAY TO GO GEORGE V FOR PREVENTING THE RESCUE OF THE ROMANOVS TO BRITAIN!


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on June 18, 2013, 10:06:21 pm
An interview with Maria http://noticias.terra.com.pe/internacional/maria-de-rusia-la-monarquia-sera-restaurada-tarde-o-temprano,44d027b2ffa2f310VgnCLD2000000dc6eb0aRCRD.html


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on October 20, 2013, 08:28:10 pm
Check this out:

Quote
3j) Pr Rostislav Romanov (b.Lake Forest, Ill 21 May 1985)

 
1k) Michael, b.2013

 This would mean that Prince Rostislav has just had a baby with his girlfriend out of wedlock!

http://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/russia.html

There hasn't been a marriage announcement and this would mean that Rostislav is emulating the Luxembourg family; I wonder that if he marries her, then it'll undermine his claim to the headship of the Romanov Imperial Family, at least in the area of marriage.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: RoyalWatcher on October 20, 2013, 11:56:22 pm
I've always been curious about the Romanov family......especially with Anna Anderson and her claim to be the Grand Duchess Anastasia.

It was always the element of well, maybe if...........and then fill in the blank.    When the bodies were finally found in the early 1990's, and then the other bodies a few years later, close by the original site, it finally brings close to that fantasy of what if.  With the confirmation of the DNA evidence that all of the children had been killed in the 1917 assassination, ironically provided by Prince Phillip, one of the few relatives left that could be tested through the mitochondrial DNA (mother's side), the Russian Imperial Family can finally be laid to rest.



Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: MOSAIC on October 21, 2013, 12:02:11 am
Just think, all those kids butchered in a hail of Bolshevik bullets.

WAY TO GO GEORGE V FOR PREVENTING THE RESCUE OF THE ROMANOVS TO BRITAIN!

I lived next to a Russian woman for several years and she always swore that the BRF
was cursed because of the way George V had declined to send help to recue them.
I think she was right.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: RoyalWatcher on October 21, 2013, 12:03:46 am
She may have been..

And although Nicolas and George were cousins...they were not on the same side.  George was furious that Nick had supported Kaiser Wilhelm-another cousin-over him. 


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on October 21, 2013, 01:15:40 am
I'm going to write to the Russian Nobility Association to find out if whether or not it's true that Rostislav has had a kid out of wedlock. Seems to be the fashion these days.

ust think, all those kids butchered in a hail of Bolshevik bullets.
WAY TO GO GEORGE V FOR PREVENTING THE RESCUE OF THE ROMANOVS TO BRITAIN!
I lived next to a Russian woman for several years and she always swore that the BRF
was cursed because of the way George V had declined to send help to recue them.
I think she was right.

You can chart the downfall of the House of Windsor from there on out; Edward VIII meets and later marries Wallis, resulting in the change from the main succession to the secondary line and this branch of the Windsors has set the monarchy on the course to self destruction. Each dynasty declining has always had a self destructiveness to it. I wonder just how different things might have been if things had been done differently; George V directly violated his boundaries when he ordered the Prime Minister to withdraw help.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: RoyalWatcher on October 21, 2013, 04:39:32 am
No one wanted Edward VIII to be king however.........he'd have given Britian and her empire to Hitler and his minions.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on October 21, 2013, 06:44:25 am
I just think the Windsors were cursed from then on out; as for Rostislav, joining the Luxembourg royals and Prince Albert of Monaco as having had a kid out of wedlock.

What a loser.

All that illustrious lineage and he seemed like the smart type that would avoid that; I mean, really, it's rather disgusting and I think the girlfriend 'missed' her contraceptive that day.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Countess of Holland on October 21, 2013, 10:12:06 am
She may have been..

And although Nicolas and George were cousins...they were not on the same side.  George was furious that Nick had supported Kaiser Wilhelm-another cousin-over him. 

Sorry but you should read up on your history...Germany wasn't on the same side with Russia.

One of the first things the bolsheviks did after they overthrew the Romanovs was to negotiate a peace with the Germans; the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk.

George wasn't mad at his Russian cousins. He had to follow the line of the British government (the UK being a constitutional monarchy and all) and the government was afraid that letting a despote (like Nicholas II was) in, would destabilize the country, especially since the war wasn't going all that well for the UK in 1917. And they feared that the growing discontent would grow out to be an English Revolution and the presence of the Tsar and his family would increase that possibility.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Mon Roi Henry IX on November 06, 2013, 07:08:15 pm
The Romanovs were a beautiful Russian family.
I always will feel very badly for Romanovs and Maria Feodorovna . Those murders are historically heinous.
Those Bolsheviks only brought misery to Russia. And those Bolsheviks crafty ideology & ways , brought misery to many other countries whose naïve people believed and followed their lies.
Nothing good could come out of them. Then or now.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HC on November 06, 2013, 07:33:54 pm
The Romanovs treated the population horribly.

The danish King pleaded to his sister to save the russian jews, according to several letters. But his sister didn't care for the jews being slaughtered. And she didn't care for her population starving.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Mon Roi Henry IX on November 06, 2013, 07:55:19 pm
^
H.C, 'horribly' is not close to what Genrikh Yagoda did.
How the Czar treated the population is not even close to what the Bolsheviks did which was historically horrendous.
Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn flatly stated that 60 million people were killed by Bolsheviks.
Tel Aviv University's Dr. Igal Halfin writes that Stalinist violence was unique in that it was directed internally.
Below is a Jewish newspaper that states surely at least 20 million were murdered. The author of the article below states: "I find it unacceptable that a person will be considered a member of the Jewish people when he does great things, but not considered part of our people when he does amazingly despicable things".

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

What I understand from this article is that all people/groups in the world have the potential to be murderers.   Nobody is exempt.



 


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HC on November 06, 2013, 08:17:08 pm
I don't prefer Stalin.

And I do think the Romanovs had a horribly ending.

That said I think that even according to the standards at the time, the Romanovs treated the population horribly. The danish Kings letters to his sister, where he begs her to be humane, show that she was crossing the line by far.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Mon Roi Henry IX on November 06, 2013, 08:30:17 pm
I don't prefer Stalin either or any communist. I have lived under them (Communism).
Communists are up there on the top with the worst of all. And God help the nation that falls under them.
What I was pointing out is that meanness comes from any nation, any people. Just when you think you have heard the worst in atrocities, a group , a psychopath turns out to be worse than the one before....until the next one .



Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HC on November 06, 2013, 08:48:48 pm
I agree that meanness comes from any nation, any people.

But I don't agree on your nice words about Maria Feodorovna (her danish name Dagmar).

Dagmar was a danish princess and she should have known better, than to treat her new russian people like animals. Her father in law knew that the russian people deserved better than being living like slaves. Unfortunately he died just before the changes was done.

And her brother the danish King also tried to talk sense to her.

I'm convinced she was a shallow person only interested in diamonds, fur and clothes from Paris. While people were starving or murdering each other.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on November 06, 2013, 09:49:26 pm
It's odd how these liberally raised women became so autocratic after marrying the Czar.

The Romanovs treated the population horribly.
The danish King pleaded to his sister to save the russian jews, according to several letters. But his sister didn't care for the jews being slaughtered. And she didn't care for her population starving.

I agree; the real problem with the Romanovs is that the world they lived in was just like the world the Windsors live in right now. Nicholas and Alexandra were complete airheads and Alexandra was not a good empress. She isolated her husband and she should have been out there getting to know her country and encouraging her husband to be more liberal. She did after all come from Britain and the culture of Parliament and she failed to connect with society at least who might have helped. After Bloody Sunday and his work against the Duma, what happened was only natural.

One thing I do know though, is that the kids should never have been subjected to such butchery.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Mon Roi Henry IX on November 07, 2013, 04:46:29 pm
HC I don't see  where I said nice words about her. I said I felt pity for her as she lost most of her family members .
Alexandrine also said: "Dagmar could have a difficult personality but she lost nearly all her family, so very difficult to not feel pity for her".

I said the Romanovs were a beautiful family, meaning --the children always nicely dressed ,educated, the husband loved his wife, the children. They all seemed to love one another. As a group they were beautiful together.
As to Maria ( Dagmar) a lot of people that have money and power then and today have no cares for others . We just to look at our politicians and those CEO’s in big corporations.  They abuse those below them, squander their lives’ savings, lie to them, treat them literally like slaves, while they and family live as Dagmar did---quite well with diamonds and furs. Our leaders treat us terribly too. Nevertheless, they don’t go as far as putting people in gulags and torture them. As far, as the murdering Bolsheviks went , the Romanovs never went that far.
Dagmar was probably quite shallow as you said, having people living like slaves and caring for her diamonds and furs , the world is full of Dagmars ( CEO’s , politicians, bosses, presidents) but she wasn’t Genrikh Yagoda, who was one of the worst murderers of the 20th century, as was Stalin and his gangs of murderers. Neither was she, Leonid Reichman, a well known interrogator that was a cruel sadist.
Dagmar turned a blind eye to the starvations and to the murderings (not humane obviously) but what is new?,  Dagmar cannot be compared to those mentioned above that  perpetrated the murders of 60 million people.
Dagmar was shallow but did not perpetrate the butchery against 60 million people. 

We agree that Dagmar was shallow and interested in wealth and turned a blind eye to the suffering of  people. However, Jews were not the sole sufferers. The Jews were not greater victims of being ignored by her shallowness that were the rest of the population. Everyone suffered equally.
Having said that, I for one, can feel pity for a woman shallow or not, whose family was butchered.



 I know your opinion on Dagmar but I’d like to hear your opinion on Yagoda and Reichman.

 





Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on November 07, 2013, 04:51:11 pm
I can understand Dagmar (not justifying her behaviour though). We see it from our XXI century perspective but it wasn't her reality.

She was a princess even if her family branch wasn't very high in that moment and she got married in family were the tzar was like a god.

It's easy to see why she behave like she did.

And I think we usually make the women in the royal couples the guilty ones when things go wrong. There is a lot of malice towards Alix (possibly justified) but people forget about Nicholas. Same about Marie Antoinette.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HC on November 07, 2013, 05:36:22 pm
Alexandrine,
I do agree the tendency to blame the women and not the men. In this context I'm more disapponted in Dagmar (Maria) than her husbond, mostly because it is documented that Dagmar turned the blind eye despite the fact that her brother the danish King wrote letters that blamed her for being inhumane.

Mon Roi
Oh I misunderstood your opinion on Dagmar. I misread the expression "beautiful". I do agree Dagmar was beautiful. She and her sister Alexandra looked very much alike. On the outside.

I'm not familiar with Yagoda nor Reichman. But I would not compare Dagmar to these people nor Stalin. As You say Dagmar didn't murder anyone by hand. 
 


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Fly on the wall on November 28, 2013, 03:41:38 am
Now that's a historical selfie! A teen Grand Duchess Anastasia is seen capturing her own reflection in 1913 Russia

It seems that the selfie, a tech-enabled self portrait, existed long before social media.

The Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna of Russia, the youngest daughter of Tsar Nicholas II, the last sovereign of Imperial Russia, took her very own selfie in 1913 -- five years before her untimely death.

Using a Kodak Brownie, a camera released in 1900, and a mirror to capture her own likeness, the then 13-year-old is seen gazing at herself with curiosity.


The Grand Duchess, who was executed with her family in an extrajudicial killing by members of the Cheka, the Bolshevik secret police, on July 17, 1918, appears to be one of the first teenagers to take a picture of herself.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2514069/Russian-Grand-Duchess-Anastasia-seen-capturing-reflection-1913-Russia.html


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on December 30, 2013, 05:45:25 am
Amazing how innovative at such a young age Anastasia was and how she and her sisters were so generally healthy and energetic and downright gorgeous. Alexei was tanned and seemed very fit despite his hemophilia and then in time he would have been an incredibly handsome Tsar and with his father as an example, likely a good father and husband.

I think it would be hugely cool if a Romanov heir/heiress popped up and ended up hitting the royal scene. An attractive Romanov who would be the undisputed Head of House would cause a sensation. Being attractive would be a huge boost to the currently uninteresting royal scene. There's a dearth of attractive royalty.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: cate1949 on December 30, 2013, 08:30:45 am
Interesting little tidbit re: the Windsors and Romanovs - Grand Duchess Elizabeth - Alexandra's sister and a granddaughter of Queen Victoria - coverted as did Alexandra - to the Russian Orthodox faith.  When her husband Grand Duke Segei was assassinated - she initially left Russia but returned - donated all her money to the poor and became a nun.  Nevertheless - the Bolsheviks killed her.  She has since been canonized as a saint in the Orthodox Church.

Dagmar/Empress Maria was returned and buried in Sts Peter and Paul besides her husband Tsar Alexander II in Russia in
2006.  Very elaborate state ceremonies were held.  This signifies the rehabilitation of the Romanov dynasty in Russia by Putin and others.

The murder of the family both the Tsar and his extended family was of course heinous - but - the utter obliviousness of the ruling family to the brutal poverty of Russian serfs was pretty heinous too.  Alexandra also should have known better coming from a parliamentary democracy like England.  But then again - while Queen Mary walked around with diamonds dripping from every inch of her torso - there were lots of poor people in Britain too.

What truly amazes me about this sorry phase of history - is how the Russian nobility just did not get how much danger they were in and did not take their chance to leave.  They actually believed it would "blow over".  Tragic. 


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Countess of Holland on December 30, 2013, 10:07:23 am
The truly tragic part is that it is happening again, but now in the US where the über-wealthy don't seem to realise the dangers about the growing disparity between the people.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on December 30, 2013, 06:32:25 pm
Quote
But then again - while Queen Mary walked around with diamonds dripping from every inch of her torso - there were lots of poor people in Britain too.

The Brits weren't bound by serfdom and weren't imprisoned and shot for questioning things. An average Englishman, with the right combination of skill and luck, could end up making a great living for himself and his kids and prosper. Even in the Middle Ages and Tudor times, someone could move up in the world, like the Boleyn family. Anne Boleyn's father had gone from humble man, to merchant, to Lord Mayor of London, then with Sir Thomas Boleyn, from merchant's son to husband of a Howard Lady and father to the Queen Consort of England and then to grandfather to one of England's greatest Queens ever.

In Russia, such a move up was impossible because even in the early twentieth century, serfdom was enforced. Russia never updated her economy or system of government. The British government moved to a Parliament long before the time of Henry VIII and ended up reasserting themselves fully during the Glorious Revolution.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: cate1949 on December 31, 2013, 02:53:18 am
Quote
But then again - while Queen Mary walked around with diamonds dripping from every inch of her torso - there were lots of poor people in Britain too.

The Brits weren't bound by serfdom and weren't imprisoned and shot for questioning things. An average Englishman, with the right combination of skill and luck, could end up making a great living for himself and his kids and prosper. Even in the Middle Ages and Tudor times, someone could move up in the world, like the Boleyn family. Anne Boleyn's father had gone from humble man, to merchant, to Lord Mayor of London, then with Sir Thomas Boleyn, from merchant's son to husband of a Howard Lady and father to the Queen Consort of England and then to grandfather to one of England's greatest Queens ever.

In Russia, such a move up was impossible because even in the early twentieth century, serfdom was enforced. Russia never updated her economy or system of government. The British government moved to a Parliament long before the time of Henry VIII and ended up reasserting themselves fully during the Glorious Revolution.


yes your point is valid making Alexandra and Marie's obliviousness even more damaging.  But there was significant poverty in the UK also - consider the condition oh miners or what happened in Ireland after the 1840's.

countess of Holland - agree totally - was thinking the same - elites make the mistake of thinking that because times are good for them they must be good for everyone - or they see themsleves as deserving and fail to account for how much of their wealth comes from others work.  Extremely shortsighted and it is hard again to understand such shortsightedness let alone the lack of compassion.  The Romanovs join the list of examples to learn from - but sadly - few learn.  The Romanovs could have learned from the French monarchs - they did not.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on December 31, 2013, 09:06:40 am
Yeah I know; yet the real problem is, that Alexandra (and interestingly Marie Antoinette) never bothered to make it a point to show the people that they appreciated the people. Alexandra thought the peasants, the REAL peasants, loved the Imperial Family by virtue of their position and only the elites (aka, intellectuals) wanted revolution.

One thing I do know though, is that the butchery and thoroughness of it is shell shocking. Even Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI had a trial and public execution. The kids were spared, not lined up against a wall, shot, then stabbed to death/mutilated with bayonets and dumped in a mine shaft, burned, then dug up and drowned in acid.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HC on December 31, 2013, 02:05:02 pm
I watched a documentary about King George. He certainly understood the lesson and travelled around England all the time to meet the english working class.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: india on December 31, 2013, 05:42:47 pm
What happened to the Romanovs is incomprehensiblly horrific. This goes to show how terrible the human race can be to one another.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Royal Lowness on December 31, 2013, 06:43:49 pm
A certain group wanted a central bank in Russia, which the Tzar refused. The butchery that was then wrought upon the Russian people and the Tzar and his family was not human, it was demonic.

We have witnessed the same in our time, with Muammar Gaddifi resisting a central bank in Libya.

John Kennedy was going to close the central bank (the 'Federal Reserve', which is not federal and has no reserves) in the United States. Abraham Lincoln before him.

William of Orange was funded and armed to establish a central bank in England.

Murder, murder, murder, ... and always by the same enemy.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: india on January 01, 2014, 02:27:46 am
Amazing isn't it? How much longer is this kind of atrocity going to continue?


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: cate1949 on January 01, 2014, 08:35:40 pm
there was no central bank in the US until after the first depression - so Lincoln hardly could have planned to close something that did not yet exist


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on January 02, 2014, 12:03:22 am
The Romanovs family murder was atrocious. But, and this is a big but, what that family had done to Russia was even more barbaric. Peasants still live in feudal society. They were slaves and belonged to their owners. Not surprising that communism got such a good reception in that country.

After watching the Russian Ark film (very recommended) I decided to read the book the film is loosely based. The book was written after a french aristo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Custine) decided to travel to Russia. When he starts his trip and tells people where he is going he says that people recommended not to go because even Russians wanted to leave the country. What he tells about Russia afterwards shows a very backwards society where royalty lives in a gold bubble, though murder among themselves is not uncommon. Problem is that when the first world war started Russia hasn't changed at all although society was moving on. WWI just made the change easier. Although we could theorise that what Russia is now it's "thanks" to the Romanovs. There is no democratic culture and Putin is only the result of their unlucky history.

I find Nicholas and his family death very tragic and sad because no one deserves that kind of end. However, I believe we romanticise their dead because they were royals and kind of good looking. Same with Marie Antoinette. They also represent an excess which is not usual in our times.

I also don't understand what's the problem with a central bank (unless you are an austrian economist?  :tehe:).


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: cate1949 on January 02, 2014, 12:18:13 am
Alexandrine - agree totally - the tendency to blame George V for the Romanov deaths is misplaced IMHO - the Bolsheviks killed them - not George V - and the utter almost incomprehensible failure to recognize the need for change by the Tsar and the Russian upper classes is surely  the real cause of the revolt and their tragic deaths.  No one mourns the thousands of peasants who routinely died of hunger and disease under the Tsars because as you say - they were not so attractive or glamorous.  Nicholas and Alexander were so obsessed with their sons illness - they were so exploited by Rasputin and others due to that obsession - they did not really see what was happening.  This is what comes of living in a bubble and failing to see that their duty was to the people - not the other way around.

The sheer sumptuousness of their lifestyle is mind boggling.  Palaces with roofs sheathed in gold - real gold - not paint.
The opulence of the Palace decor, their art, their jewels, even the summer dachas on the black sea - magnificent but all done off the backs of the Russian peasants.  Add the privations and death toll of WWI - the revolt was inevitable.

Now in Russia the glories of their Imperial past are being resurrected again - even the heraldic symbols of the past are being used again.   


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Vesper on January 02, 2014, 12:27:23 am
After watching the Russian Ark film (very recommended) I decided to read the book the film is loosely based.

I did not know that Russian Ark was based on a book, I saw the movie years ago and loved it, so I'll be sure to check it out. Thanks!


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on January 02, 2014, 12:40:12 am
^ I somewhat disagree about K. George. He must have known that they could be killed but he decided not to help because it could harm his reign. Nicholas was his cousin, they were relatively closed (?), at least they spent holidays together and all. But he decided not to do anything. I wonder what kind of relationship he had with the dowager empress when she lived in the UK.

About the lifestyle it was as you say mind boggling. I don't think we can even understand how it was compared to the rest of the country. That was really the 1% versus the rest. That it ended as tragically as it did makes more impression on us.

After watching the Russian Ark film (very recommended) I decided to read the book the film is loosely based.

I did not know that Russian Ark was based on a book, I saw the movie years ago and loved it, so I'll be sure to check it out. Thanks!

The guy that appears very often it's supposed to the the french aristo. The book is interesting if you are interested in Russia it talks about royalty, politics and it's society when he visited. However, it's not like the film at all.  :flower:




Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: cate1949 on January 02, 2014, 01:53:43 am
LOL - I am the defender of George V - an unlikely role for myself but - Mi1 was ordered to develop a rescue plan - British soldiers were going to be parachuted in to rescue the Tsar and his family - George V ordered this plan to be developed.  But the plan was stymied when they moved the Tsar to a location that was inaccessible for the British.  The hope was then that the White Russians would get there in time for a rescue - but obviously that also failed.

It really is unfair to dump the blame on him - Denmark was a powerful country too at the time and had a Navy that could have provided rescue to the extended family.  But they did not.  It is true there was a lot of ambivalence in the UK government and with George V about bringing them to the UK for fear of inciting unrest in the UK - but there was a rescue plan.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on January 02, 2014, 09:52:43 pm
^I've always read that it was George who decided to not make any intent on saving them because it could hurt him in the future. At least I remember that Donald Spoto mentioned the story like that and he was quite biased in favour of the royals. Or maybe I'm just remembering incorrectly  ???


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on January 02, 2014, 10:42:47 pm
LOL - I am the defender of George V - an unlikely role for myself but - Mi1 was ordered to develop a rescue plan - British soldiers were going to be parachuted in to rescue the Tsar and his family - George V ordered this plan to be developed.  But the plan was stymied when they moved the Tsar to a location that was inaccessible for the British.  The hope was then that the White Russians would get there in time for a rescue - but obviously that also failed.
It really is unfair to dump the blame on him - Denmark was a powerful country too at the time and had a Navy that could have provided rescue to the extended family.  But they did not.  It is true there was a lot of ambivalence in the UK government and with George V about bringing them to the UK for fear of inciting unrest in the UK - but there was a rescue plan.

The problem with George is that he wanted to keep things secret and not show force; a simple sailing of a naval vessel would have ended up saving the Romanovs and the Kaiser ordered his military not to attack if a naval vessel from Britain showed up. This was while WWI was still technically still 'on.' The Danes did save the Dowager Empress and hundreds of other Russians who wanted to get out, so no excuses on the part of the BRF. Dowager Empress Marie lived in Denmark the rest of her life. A simple show of force would have sufficed and the Romanovs could have been dropped off in one of the hundreds of colonies that existed at the time. No need to drop them off in Britain itself.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: cate1949 on January 02, 2014, 11:01:57 pm
KF - the Brits did send naval vessels into the Black sea - that is how the Dowager escaped - on a Royal Navy ship. 


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HC on January 03, 2014, 08:15:48 pm
Looking at several sources it looks like the monarchies were under attack at the time and 20 or more royal houses were loosing their country. In that aspect I can understand that King George didn't want to help the Zar.

And according to danish wikipedia about Dagmar, she actually changed her mind and tried to persiade her son to make demokratic reforms. But the zar refused to understand the need.

Dagmar refused to leave Russia. There was some correspondance with Denmark, where she only wanted to leave if there were certain standards met, par example she demanded Denmark to send government officials. But eventually her sister Queen Alexandra persuaded her to leave with the british warship. 

As such Dagmars brother, the danish King didn't bring Dagmar home, but Denmark made a humanitarian effort and safed thousinds of warprisoners that was suffering in Russia.

Dagmar spend some time together with her sister Alexandra, but found it difficult to be less important than her sister the english dowager.

In Denmark her brother the danish King had some difficulty with Dagmars spending habits. He wanted her amongst other things to minimise the electric bills. Dagmar then turned on all lights 24/7....

But there was many exile russians there to adore Dagmar and she had most of her children still alive.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: cate1949 on January 04, 2014, 12:16:25 am
Dagmar and Alexandra were supposed to be great beauties in their day - and both lost a son. Alexandra also witnessed her sons death - the PoW died of cholera or typhoid or some such thing - as an adult.  It is said she was never the same after his death. 


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on January 04, 2014, 02:06:14 am
After the death of the Imperial Family, there were two factions; one supported the Vladimir family and the other headed by Prince Nicholas Romanov. The Vladimir family have been the most disgustingly ambitious; think of them as the Middletons of the Russian aristocracy.


Title: True secret history of the last Russian princesses
Post by: Snokitty on March 23, 2014, 09:29:24 pm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/you/article-2584495/Privilege-passion-Russian-princesses.html

Quote
Born into immense wealth, the four daughters of Tsar Nicholas II grew up largely hidden from public view and little was known about them – until now. Author Helen Rappaport reveals how, just when they were able to start engaging with the wider world, events in Russia overtook them


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on July 29, 2014, 01:15:45 am
I know I'm not supposed to double post, but look at this:

Grand Duchess Maria: Russia will not give up Crimea despite sanctions
Quote
The positive experience of the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union should be taken into account
Russia Beyond the Headlines - http://rbth.com/international/2014/0/17/grand_duchess_maria_russia_will_not_give_up_crimea_despite_sanc_35993.html

The woman is insane to think that the Soviet Union could have ever been positive in any way.

Statement from the Head of the House of Romanoff on the Recent Events in Ukraine
http://www.imperialhouse.ru/eng/allnews/news/2014/3960.html

The woman is only a disputed claimant, for which I am relieved. I am shocked that she thinks that the Soviet Union was good and that this invasion of Ukraine is somehow justified because of a former time when Ukraine was part of the former Russian Empire.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: cate1949 on July 29, 2014, 03:26:09 am
she will say anything to curry favor with Putin - she has ambitions


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Ariel on July 29, 2014, 04:50:38 am
she doesn't say that the soviet union was good.
by the way- in ucraine half of the population are russians. it always had. it was artificially created in 1991. but in the country - most if not many people speak russian and are russian. in fact, i've seen them - proud to be ucrainian but speaking to each other in russian, not ucrainian. what kind of country prefers to speak among each other a foreign language to their own. also - many,many of the citizen of this country still have in their mind that they are russians. they were russians until 1991 when they were told that their birthplace will now be a different country. there are several artificially created countires in europe where it's citizens were born and raised in one country but for political reason their motherland was renamed to be a different country.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on July 29, 2014, 06:09:56 am
Who knows what the people of Ukraine think; what irritates is how she toadies to Putin so obviously and yet, she's determined to foist a monarchy with her at the head of it.

A representative of her said that all Russians are responsible for the death of the Imperial Family, laying a guilt trip on Russians even today.

She's loathed by the other Romanovs and she's the only one promoting herself as rightful claimant; of course, Russians would decide this.

As for Putin, I believe he's going to be the one deciding to have himself crowned as Tsar. I'm surprised Maria doesn't marry Putin herself, with her son as heir.

No way is Maria some benign woman, she's been actively promoting herself in Russia, the woman is determined.

Now, the rest of the Romanovs support Rostislav as Heir and future Head of House; Grand Duke Cyril, after the Revolution, announced that (this was after the death of the Empress Dowager) he was now Head of the House of Romanov. Apparently, even while Nicholas and Alexandra were reigning, the Vladimir branch was actively scheming against the ruling couple.

The idea floating around was that Nicholas and Alexandra would be deposed, with the Vladimirs ruling as Regent over the Throne while Alexei (son and Heir) was a minor. Of course, full usurpation was on their ambitious minds.

Think of the Vladimirs as the Russian equivalent of the Duke of Orleans; the Duke supported the overthrow of the monarchy during the French Revolution; predictably, the Duke himself ended up guillotined by the very revolutionaries he had nurtured in his own palace at the Luxembourg. Cyril, the head of the Vladimir branch in fact pledged support to the Reds, flew the Bolshevik flag over his palace, and withdrew the soldiers who were under his command, the very troops who were guarding the Imperial Family, leaving the entire Imperial Family unprotected. Yes, he was that opportunistic and low.

Even when Marie (the Empress Dowager) was alive, Cyril tried at times to announce himself as Heir and future Head of the House of Romanov; he barely waited until the Dowager Empress was dead and then was vociferous against the idea that any of the Imperial Family had survived.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Countess of Holland on July 29, 2014, 07:06:03 am
it was artificially created in 1991. but in the country - most if not many people speak russian and are russian. in fact, i've seen them - proud to be ucrainian but speaking to each other in russian, not ucrainian. what kind of country prefers to speak among each other a foreign language to their own. also - many,many of the citizen of this country still have in their mind that they are russians. they were russians until 1991 when they were told that their birthplace will now be a different country. there are several artificially created countires in europe where it's citizens were born and raised in one country but for political reason their motherland was renamed to be a different country.

Wow...I have never read so many disinformation in one post.

I don't know what you think was 'artificially created' in 1991 but it sure wasn't the Ukraine. The Ukraine is essentially the successor of the great Grandduchy of Kiev. Later, it was often dominated or divided by foreign troops and nations; from Lithuania to the Austrian-Hungarian empire and the Ottoman Empire.
In the 19th centrury it was divided between Russia (the eastern part) and Austria-Hungary (the western part) and this division is the reason why the people in the east and west of the country have such different views and why people in the east want to be part of Russia. Because for over 200 years now, during the Russian time and when the Ukraine was unvoluntarily incorporated by the USSR in 1921, Russians were moved to the country to 'russify' is.

As for the language-issue: during the years of the USSR all people learned Russian, like a lingua franca, and often the use of a local language of dialect of that language was forbidden or discouraged. As a result, there are entire generations who are indeed more fluent in Russian than in Ukrainian but not by a choice of themselves.

The only part that was articifial was the fact that the Crimea was Ukranian, that was the result of a decision made in 1954 by Nikita Krushev. But that still doesn't give Putin the right to just seize the territory. The borders of both the Ukraine (including the Crimea) and Russia were fixed and agreed upon when the USSR dismantled and a number of treaties between the countries were closed and agreed upon. These treaties were agreed upon by the governments and parliaments of all states involved and that made them a fait accompli. And every new president of Russia has to abide by them.

As for the other artificial countries...the fact that borders are re-drawn, with consent of parliaments and the people (like in the division of Czechoslovakia) or to honour the different histories of a nation (like in former Yugoslavia...Catholic Slovenia is entirely different from orthodox Serbia f.e) hardly makes them 'artificial'. The creation of a massive empire like Austria-Hungary with many different people speaking up to 20 different languages was far more artificial than the creation of nation states.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Ariel on July 29, 2014, 11:24:56 pm
Countess, you could be surprized at how little i know about history. all i've learned about history was in high school and even then this wasn't my favorite subject. however, i travel a lot and i experience the world through the eyes of the people i talk to. so - from what i've learned from the ukrainians i know - a big part of the country is populated by purebred russians (apologies for talking horse lingo for people, but this is what comes to mind) - people who are born in Russia, speak russian and are russian nationalists. which would explain why Putin gets so much support for the military actions which they undertake in Uckraine.

about the countries which you mentioned  :flower: i learned something new today. however, i had in mind a different example - Catalonia. the catalonians are so passionate about their own culture that they love to talk about getting their own country on the territory of Spain, and you'd better not be a real madrid fan if you are in Catalonia ;)

going back on topic - the "russify" tactic was a very good one because now there are russians who are 100% russian, who live in Ukraine, consider this countryto be their motherland and won't see anything wrong with "their motherland going back to Russia" - like Cremea.   so, i'd say - very well done. some of Ukraine's people actually want their lands to be called Russia instead of Ukrain. and,if they had waited another 100 years to russify the whole nation, yhey might have not even needed military tactics to get what they want.

and about this grand duches - this is the very first time i hear about her and i already don't like her.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Countess of Holland on July 30, 2014, 09:54:58 am
"Well done"? I beg to differ. From a Russian point of view it may be well done, but not from the Ukrainian point of view and we are talking about the Ukraine. If Russian people living in the Ukraine want to live in Russia, they can move. If the Ukraine is forced to become Russian again, where would all the people who feel Ukrainian go to?

And most people in the Ukraine were not born in Russia, not even the people who feel Russian and who now fight against the Ukrainian government. They are people who are born from parents, or even grandparents, who moved to the Ukraine during the times of the USSR (1921-1989). The problem is that the group of Russian people in the Ukraine has always been very much isolated and inward looking. So not much contact, let alone marriages, with the original Ukrainian people.

I often compare this situation with f.e. New Mexico. More and more people from Mexico move to New Mexico. Imagine the government of Mexico all of a sudden decide to conquer New Mexico and make it one of the Mexican states instead of a US state. I am sure the US government will send the marines.

As for Catalonia and their wish for independence, this is less artificial than you think. Spain is essentially a gathering of former Kingdoms, Dukedoms and principalities; Navarre, Léon, Castilia, Aragon, Asturia. Catalonia was government by the Count of Barcelona and the Kings of Aragon. Because of a marriage between Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabel of Castilia, the two countries became part of a personal union. But Catalonia kept their own laws and their own language. The independence of the country from Castilia ended in 1700 when the Borbons became Kings of Spain. But the different language remained and was recognized as one of the official languages of Spain.

Only under Franco (1936-1975) the different languages within Spain were not allowed and the people in Catalonia were forced to learn the main Spanish language, Castilian (the Spanish version of 'the Queen's English so to speak). As you might understand, this caused a lot of bad blood in Catalonia, but also in the Basque Country (ETA) that also had to give up their own identity, culture and language. Any attempt to get acception and recognition for their own culture was answered with more and more opporession from Madrid. So when Franco died, and democracy was installed, the long-oppressed want for more independence was like a volcano ready to erupt. As it did in Yugoslavia after the death of Tito who had also oppressed the different culture of Montenegro, Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia.

So Catalonia, if independent, would truly be, what political scientists (of which I am one) call a 'nation state': a state with people of the same ethnicity, speaking the language, sharing a culture and a common history. And there is nothing artificial about it. People feeling part of a nation is often the result of hundreds of years of a evolving history, culture and language.
After World War I many nation states emerged; Hungary, Poland, Austria. And with the division of Yugoslavia many more nation states saw the light; Slovenia, Serbia, Bosnia etc.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on July 31, 2014, 07:04:01 pm


As for Catalonia and their wish for independence, this is less artificial than you think. Spain is essentially a gathering of former Kingdoms, Dukedoms and principalities; Navarre, Léon, Castilia, Aragon, Asturia. Catalonia was government by the Count of Barcelona and the Kings of Aragon. Because of a marriage between Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabel of Castilia, the two countries became part of a personal union. But Catalonia kept their own laws and their own language. The independence of the country from Castilia ended in 1700 when the Borbons became Kings of Spain. But the different language remained and was recognized as one of the official languages of Spain.

Only under Franco (1936-1975) the different languages within Spain were not allowed and the people in Catalonia were forced to learn the main Spanish language, Castilian (the Spanish version of 'the Queen's English so to speak). As you might understand, this caused a lot of bad blood in Catalonia, but also in the Basque Country (ETA) that also had to give up their own identity, culture and language. Any attempt to get acception and recognition for their own culture was answered with more and more opporession from Madrid. So when Franco died, and democracy was installed, the long-oppressed want for more independence was like a volcano ready to erupt. As it did in Yugoslavia after the death of Tito who had also oppressed the different culture of Montenegro, Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia.



Not really getting into the argument but a just a note  :flower:

However, after the nova planta decrees (1714) the main language was spanish/castilian. They even closed the catalan universities and created a new one to stop people studying in that language.

This shows on that for ex the language didn't have a proper grammar until the 20th century.

The bad blood started on 1714 when they considered that they lost the war and that they were a conquered state. The national day commemorates the day they lost the war.

IMO independence is also not a reaction to the dictatorship of Franco. Nationalism feeling started in the end of the 19th/start of the 20th century.

During the second republic they tried getting their independence though it didn't well.

It's a good read the book by Ortega y Gasset (Invertabrate Spain) about this topic. He says that while Spain was an empire it grew and then after losing the colonies Spain would start dividing itself. And well more or less it is working that way.

My personal opinion is that unless you are also getting out of the EU it doesn't make sense to be separate. Be it Cataluña or the Flemish region.

Sorry for the long off topic.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Countess of Holland on July 31, 2014, 07:50:59 pm
Thanks. I didn't know nationalism was already strong prior to the Franco years. But fact remained that Franco suppressed it rather ruthlesly; forbidding even Catalunian names.
When Dutch soccer player John Cruijff played in Barcelona, he used the nationalism quite well. His wife gave birth to a son while she was in The Netherlands. They named him Jordy, a Catalunian name. And since he was born in The Netherlands and registered with a name that was acceptable in The Netherlands, the Spanish state could not prevent this. It is one of the reasons why Johan Cruijff is popular in Cataluniauntil this very moment (that and his success as a player and a coach obviously).

As for seeking independence while remaining in the EU, I don't entirely agree with you. Although the reason why I disagree is more monetary/ financial than cultural. As a separate country, Catalonia would receive their own funds and not be dependent on Spain.

But we are getting very OT now. Sorry Yooper!


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on July 31, 2014, 08:13:01 pm
^ LOL I'm a mod too. So I think we are safe  :tehe:


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Countess of Holland on July 31, 2014, 09:15:14 pm
Is this an example that 'power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely'? :tehe:


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on July 31, 2014, 10:59:39 pm
You got me. I accept bribes (chocolate cake preferred).  :king:


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on August 01, 2014, 10:58:08 am
I think it would be awesome if a non-contestable heir to the House of Romanov were discovered. It would be exciting and end up with endless fascination. The Romanovs are among the most fractious group among the dethroned families today and are one of the few that are 'socially secure'; they're considered more royal than the Windsors and yet, one of the most secretive out there. Very little is known about the various Romanovs and they blend in remarkably well. There is Maria Vladimirovna, but thing is, that she's the only one who is so public about her views and in that she claims headship so aggressively.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: cate1949 on August 01, 2014, 11:51:19 am
there apparently is some sentiment in Russia to restore there Tsar - and some of that does come from the oligarchs.  But it would really come down o Putin - I bet he'd only do it if things got dicey there - to restore maybe some national unity.  And I'd bet the Prince who is living there now would be the front liner.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Countess of Holland on August 01, 2014, 02:15:15 pm
If the monarchy is restored in Russia, Putin will declare himself the Tsar. Just like the first Romanov-tsar did in 1613.

As for uncontestant candidate...not going to happen. All lines are clear, all descendants are known. If someone would not come out and claims to be the descendant of this or that Grandduke, that person would not be uncontested for the simple reason that even if that Grandduke married long ago, that marriage would have been invalid because the Tsar did not give his consent to the marriage.

Maria Romanov...contested because 1. She is a woman and after a ruling of Paul I who detested his own mother Catherine (the Great) a woman can not be Tsarina in her own right and can not pass claims to her descendants and 2. The marriage of her own father to a Bagration-princess would have been unequal under the Tsar.

All the others come from even more unequal marriages so are out as well. People like Rotislav are essentially morganatic branches, like the Battenbergs/ Mountbattens are a morganatic branch of the House of Hessen und bei Rhein, which is now extinct.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Ariel on August 01, 2014, 04:08:16 pm
don't think that the russians secretly wish to become kingdom again. especially when they have Putin, jmho


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HC on August 01, 2014, 09:10:51 pm
Ive read somewhere that Putin is a reinkarnation of a previous tsar


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on August 01, 2014, 10:27:13 pm
^LOL it wouldn't be surprising if he consulted astrologers


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Ariel on August 01, 2014, 10:35:58 pm
not entirely sure that these come from actual astrologers. some have posted that he is the reincarnated Tsar Nicolas II (the last ruling Romanov). a russian "psychic" said that she saw that Putin is the reincarnated St. Paul. additionnally, there's an ongoing campaign that builds his image as The real man - riding bare chested, fishing, doing other manly man things. so, imo, he doesn't need to become tsar - he's already ruling the country and doing whatever he pleases and people follow his every word like it's the law.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on August 01, 2014, 10:44:25 pm
got it, it's like more of his personal campaign to sell his image

But the russians have a yearning for a new dynasty? It's not like the Romanovs were good monarchs.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: cate1949 on August 01, 2014, 11:08:09 pm
I think the only reason there were discussions about restoring the monarchy (during the Yeltsin regime) was because there was a belief they had to find something to bring Russians together after the collapse of the former "bring Russian together" - the worship of the state.  The collapse of the state left a void.  Now it looks like Putin is using the Russian Church for that purpose.  So they may not need the Tsars..

The thing is re: the convoluted rules about who can be Tsar - they are irrelevant.  Once the Russia of the Tsars ceased to exist so did all of its laws including succession laws.  A new state - the soviet Russia was created - that ended and now another state has been created with new laws again - the Russian Federation.  So the state can create what ever laws they want regarding succession or identifying who the next Tsar might be.  It is like saying the UK needs to bring back electing Kings through the Witenmagot cause that was the rule 1,000 years ago.  The Romanovs can fuss over their rules all they want - they no longer make rules for Russia and if there was a restoration - all would be on the state's terms not archaic rules that are irrelevant now.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on August 20, 2014, 10:52:47 am
I wonder, what is it about the Headship of the House of Romanov and "Throne" (I use that very loosely) that is so attractive? It's like the Romanovs are going crazy over this, at least Vladimirovna did.

I don't know how else to say this, but if a reality television series were done about the Romanovs and their drama surrounding the claiming of the Headship of the House of Romanov and of course, the "Throne," I am certain that it would get massive ratings. Sheer, pure, entertainment.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: AnaBolena on August 21, 2014, 05:42:51 pm
^ Not as much as the BRF would.  Their reality TV would be rated R and not for royal.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on August 24, 2014, 04:47:33 pm
Just watch game of thrones.


Title: Re: The Romanovs/Prince Nicholas dead at 92
Post by: Kuei Fei on September 15, 2014, 01:34:37 pm
Prince Nicholas Dead

Prince Nikolai Romanovich,son of Roman Petrovitch,Godson of the last Tsar,and Prascovia Dimitrievna Scheremetev,passed away in Tuscany aged 92 thus the announcement by his younger brother,Prince Dmitri Romanovitch.

Prince Nikolai was President of the Romanov Family Association since 1989

R.I.P.

Romanov Family Association:
http://romanovfamily.org/
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanov_Family_Association

This means that Prince Rostislav is now the Head of the Association and considered by all (except Maria Vladimirovna and Georgi) to be a rightful successor in the event that the Romanovs would be welcomed back into the Russian monarchical fold. It also means that Maria will now disparage him since Rostislav is her rival.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: cate1949 on September 15, 2014, 07:37:11 pm
thanks for posting that info KF


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on September 15, 2014, 07:48:37 pm
I contacted them and have the news that they'll be posting the obituary in a while; the Russian Nobility Association, not the Romanov Family Association. I do think that there'll be a lot of Romanovs in attendance. I'll post the link to the obituary that the Russian Nobility Association posts when it's up and running.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on November 09, 2014, 09:35:15 pm
David Chavchavadze, CIA spy with Russian royal roots, dies at 90

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/obituaries/david-chavchavadze-cia-spy-with-russian-royal-roots-dies-at-90/2014/11/08/ddd65f86-5ec6-11e4-9f3a-7e28799e0549_story.html


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Fly on the wall on January 11, 2015, 05:10:53 pm
The Romanovs as you've never seen them before: Amazing photo album captures the intimate moments of Russia's last royal family just one year before they were exiled and executed

This intimate collection of photos capture Russia's imperial Romanov family like you've never seen them before.

Huddled together on a day out at the beach or around the beds of soldiers wounded in the Great War, the pictures were taken shortly before their 300-year dynasty came to a tragic and abrupt end.

Within a year of the album's latest photos, the Russian revolution swept across the country, Tsar Nicholas II abdicated and he and his family were exiled, before being murdered on Lenin's orders
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2904753/The-Romanovs-ve-never-seen-Amazing-photo-album-captures-intimate-moments-Russia-s-royal-family-just-one-year-exiled-executed.html



Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Tpearl on June 17, 2015, 02:45:58 am
Tragic.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on June 26, 2015, 03:15:34 am
Local MPs want Tsar’s family back in Russia, suggest Crimean palace as residence

Quote
A regional lawmaker has addressed the heirs of the Romanov imperial house with a request to return to Russia promising them a special legal status and one of historic palaces in Crimea or St. Petersburg.

Vladimir Petrov of the legislative assembly of the Leningrad Region wrote letters to Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna and Prince Dimitri Romanovich asking them to become symbols of national culture and maintaining traditions, like in many European nations that retained their monarchies to this day.

“For the whole length of its reign the Romanov imperial dynasty remained a foundation of the Russian statehood. At present Russia is undergoing a complicated process of regaining its glory and worldwide influence. I am sure that in this historical moment the Romanovs would not stay away from all processes that are taking place in Russia,” Petrov writes in his letter.

The politician suggested that this move would help to smooth political controversies within Russia and help to restore the “spiritual power” of the nation.

Petrov added that he and his colleagues from the Leningrad regional legislature would very soon develop and draft a bill “On the special status of representatives of the Tsars’ family” that would give some guarantees to the returning Romanovs. He also said that the royals could use one of the palaces that belonged to them before the revolution and that now remain vacant or are misused.

“To this day a lot of wonderful Tsar’s palaces near St. Petersburg are either empty or used not according to their destination. I think if one of these palaces is used as an official residence of the Romanov family it would only be for everyone’s benefit,” the lawmaker said in comments to Izvestia daily. He noted that another option was to settle the royals in the Livadia Palaces in Crimea.


http://rt.com/politics/269029-russia-imperial-house-back/


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: cate1949 on June 26, 2015, 05:13:10 am
wow - don't know what to think of this - should they do it??


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HennyPenny on June 26, 2015, 05:33:19 am
Once bitten twice shy


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Rosella on June 26, 2015, 05:51:00 am
It's only a few politicians from a regional legislature suggesting this at the moment. It may have something to do with internal Crimean politics. If the Romanovs ever got a serious offer it would have to come from someone like Putin, I think, and even then whichever branch is approached would have to think about it very carefully, examining all angles. I wouldn't go back, but then I'm not a Romanov!


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Ariel on June 26, 2015, 10:25:45 am
if you ask Maria- it's her birth right to rule the great mother russia. the romanovs should not be brought back to power. besides the living relatives are relatives of the tragically killed heirs. they have not been involved in ruling the county. they have been one of those relatives that just expects things to get handled to them on a silver platter by you. jmho.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on June 26, 2015, 12:28:08 pm
I do think that the other Romanovs just don't want to impose themselves on Russia; they just chill out and basically live life unobtrusively.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: D.I.R. on September 26, 2015, 12:02:48 am
 Prince Alexander Romanov
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_EV5vDy1Ws
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOr5wOpyHbY


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on October 02, 2015, 11:17:42 pm
nice to see you DIR!

Russia reopens criminal case on 1918 Romanov royal family murders

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/23/russia-tests-romanov-royal-family-remains

can't they let them rest in peace?


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Ariel on October 06, 2015, 02:54:05 pm
not exactly, I think they were / or should be / given the status of saints due to the way they died - defenseless. if there is any chance that a mistake was made with the identity of the bodies - it needs to be sorted before the church makes a mistake. 


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on October 06, 2015, 11:24:06 pm
At that time lot of people died defenseless and many because of the Romanovs.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HC on October 12, 2015, 04:07:00 pm
The Romanovs had a cruel and merciless rule.

It was karma getting back on the family.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: leogirl on October 15, 2015, 05:39:20 am
Yes, but I still don't think the children should have been murdered.  :thumbsdown:


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HC on October 15, 2015, 06:11:35 pm
I agree.
Non of them really.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on July 13, 2016, 03:34:51 pm
Like Louis XVI, Nicholas had abdicated and was technically a private citizen; that is what makes his death and the death of his family so pointless, a complete and utter waste. Like Louis XVI, he was relieved to have abdicated all power and even when power transferred to Grand Duke Michael, Michael signed an act of abdication granting a constitution.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Miss Hathaway on July 18, 2016, 11:58:49 pm
Yesterday, the 17th, was the anniversary of the murder of the Romanovs.   I always think it is the 18th. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1036404/Massacre-Russian-royals-Horrific-hours-dynasty.html



Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on December 24, 2016, 08:50:33 pm
The Romanovs visited Cowes   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNzy2oxHTb4


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on December 26, 2016, 10:53:08 pm
Nicholas II's coronation   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7z46-514rc


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on December 29, 2016, 01:10:20 am
I find it intriguing, that despite the prominence of the family, the Romanovs are a VERY low-key family. Never covered often in the mainstream press, never a regular fixture in the tabloids, and certainly not known to mix in the jet set, at least not the jet set that the Windsors get mixed up with.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Rosella on December 29, 2016, 02:19:54 am
^ The fact that the remnants of the three surviving branches of the Romanov family aren't better known is, IMO, because nobody is particularly interested in displaced royals. The dead Imperial family is another matter. Those that remain, living in Europe and elsewhere, are among a gaggle of descendants of people who once occupied thrones or were their relatives. Among them the Romanian, Albabian, Greek royals etc. (At least Constantine of Greece and Michael of Romania were once Kings.)

I suppose the best known Romanov today is Maria Vladimerovna and her son Georgi, and even they would be unrecognised by the vast majority of ordinary Russians. There have been feuds in the Romanov family about the rights to a long-gone throne and none of them would be able to succeed anyway under the old House rules as all of them had forebears who contracted unequal marriages.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on December 29, 2016, 02:50:38 am
Thing is, that the rest of the nobles left prefer to recognize Prince Rostislav as the Head of the House and literally *despise* Maria and her pork son. Despite the loss of their throne, unofficially they have a lot of influence and weight, just not in a more open sense.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HennyPenny on December 29, 2016, 04:48:25 am

^^
^

I agree with you both Rosella & KF.. The general public isn't curious about the Romanovs other the main branch,  they were killed so long ago.. If they do come across a story about Maria & her son, the first thing they will notice is their appearance.. I *despise* to seem shallow, but in this day and age of the internet,physical appearance is a main factor a deciding factor in some instances .  They may still  be important in the former ruling  circles but on to the general public  , they're just two unattractive  people wishing for the old days that ended before they were born  ..   


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on December 29, 2016, 05:17:27 am
The Vladimir branch has always been eager to take over. Even BEFORE it was confirmed that the Imperial Family had been exterminated, Cyril (then Grand Duke Cyril) claimed headship, even though the Dowager Empress was still alive and recognized as head of the family.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HennyPenny on December 29, 2016, 05:24:09 am

^^ I had read that somewhere .. Wasn't it rumored his mother was plotting to assassinate Nicholas II in an attempt to place her son on throne?  I heard there was a lot of bad blood between Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna & the Empress...


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on December 30, 2016, 12:58:11 am
Celebrating 300 years of the Romanov dynasty   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88PPOaFdzdk


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on December 30, 2016, 01:05:08 am
^^ I had read that somewhere .. Wasn't it rumored his mother was plotting to assassinate Nicholas II in an attempt to place her son on throne?  I heard there was a lot of bad blood between Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna & the Empress...

Actually, the plan was to dethrone Nicholas, imprison Alexandra, and then someone would rule as Regent until Alexei was ready to rule.

Of course, the Vladimir certainly had plans of their own. Alexandra objected to the idea of Grand Duke Boris (son of Maria Pavlovna) marrying Olga. Thing is, it's just as well that the daughters perished, I cannot imagine how much pressure they would be under to marry to continue the direct line. Imagine losing your parents and then being surrounded by those eager to marry you just so they can seize headship of the Imperial House through you. Too much really.

That line of Grand Dukes and Duchesses is tainted by the virulent ambition that runs in their veins.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Rosella on January 01, 2017, 01:32:27 pm
Ninety year old Prince Dimitri Romanov dies in Denmark. He'd been to Russia earlier this year to receive an award.

https://polskanorge.com/2017/01/01/oldest-relative-of-last-russian-emperor-prince-dimitri-romanov-dies-in-denmark/


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on January 19, 2017, 02:43:34 am
How did Tsarevich Alexis and his relatives get hemophilia?   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47obWXdTF-k


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Miss Hathaway on January 19, 2017, 06:27:17 pm
Through Queen Victoria.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on January 20, 2017, 09:26:30 pm
When Tsarevich Nicholas asked his parents for permission to marry Princess Alix of Hesse, Empress Marie Feodorovna opposed Nicholas' wishes. Marie Feodorovna feared Alix would diminish her influence with Nicholas.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on May 29, 2017, 12:43:42 am
Grand Duchess Olga did escape Russia. And she wrote numerous letters about safety.   
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4545266/Russian-duchess-letters-fear-Romanovs-safety.html


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on May 29, 2017, 01:36:58 am
You know, one thing that stuck out to me is how during the revolution, so many servants of the Romanovs suffered with the nobles and royals instead of turning colors and joining the revolution. One Russian servant endured horrendous torture to avoid giving away the location of the treasure held by one noble and yet, in the end gave in. Yet like I said, the servant had to be coerced into it, instead of just giving in willingly. Then there was Botkin and the others who preferred to die with the Imperial family instead of being turncoats and joining the revolutionaires. They could have saved their own lives, but chose to die.

The Board of the Russian Nobility Association in America announces with great regret the death of its President, Dr. Cyril Erastovich Geacintov.

Quote
Cyril Erastovich Geacintov was born in 1930 into a Russian noble family with clerical roots in the early 17th century.  Dr. Geacintov’s family entered the Russian Imperial civil service, and were ultimately granted hereditary nobility. Members of his family graduated from the Imperial military schools and served as officers in the Caucasus, Crimea, and many other places.
http://russiannobility.org/en/in-memoriam/


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HRHOlya on May 29, 2017, 01:27:14 pm
^^ good find!

^ I think it was just such a different mind set, just like "regular" workers being very loyal to their companies (eg working at Ford as mechanic), but no one these days is loyal anymore, the companies don't value their employees as much and therefore employees are more likely to seek work elsewhere..
In the past there was such prestige about working for the Winds as maid or other menial worker, not so nowadays anymore..


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on May 29, 2017, 07:24:21 pm
Thing is, that the Imperial Family often paid for the educations of their servant's children and it ended because so many wanted to be doctors and engineers! I did read that working for the Romanovs was far better than working for the French aristocrats and royals. I do think that a lot of Russian nobles also rescued their servants during the revolution, taking them along and helping them find new work if it wasn't possible to hire them themselves.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HRHOlya on May 29, 2017, 08:14:15 pm
^ Interesting, never knew that! So obviously then the staff saw the family as their extended family in a way. Give sth and you'll get sth back..


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on May 29, 2017, 10:46:00 pm
despite what happened later on, the Romanovs and Russian rulers were doing all they could with what they had. Nicholas and the rest of the aristocracy were not educated or trained or equipped to guide the country and I am certain that if Alexandra had not gotten so much influence, the Duma would have been formed more quickly and under better circumstances. Then Nicholas would have been a very happy representative monarch and doing regular appearances. No matter what, it is a textbook case on why consorts should never be allowed to meddle in affairs of state. As anti-feminist as it sounds, Alexandra should have been the leader of society and should have worried more about the nursery rather than the government affairs. A lot of people think that she was the one who was the driving force behind the preservation of the autocracy and she apparently did not think she needed to maintain popular affection of the people.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HRHOlya on May 29, 2017, 11:26:59 pm
^ "she was the one who was the driving force behind the preservation of the autocracy and she apparently did not think she needed to maintain popular affection of the people." Just shows how dangerous it is to be detached from the people and ignore them and disrespect the people. Even today. If only certain "royals" could get that in their thick heads...
I've forgotten quite a bit what I read on them over the years, but I agree, the tsarina had her role in the destruction of the imperial court & family, doing her own thing and not giving a care about what happened outside the palace walls, ignoring all warnings and advice to change so that the mood of the people would be turnt, but alas..

I do wonder what would have become of the girls had they lived (esp if the family had remained on the throne), because it was insanely difficult for them to find "suitable" husbands, as they were extremely constricted by rules of the court and what rank was considered "appropriate" for a husband of a (imperial) grand duchess (unless they would just throw it all away and become commoners, but the court would have been left quite empty then imo).
I also wonder if Alexei would have made it to adulthood and how long they could have handled his haemophila without today's medicine..


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Rosella on May 30, 2017, 12:10:04 am
^ When Queen Victoria, Alexandra's grandmother suggested that she show herself more to the people, Alexandra replied haughtily 'Here, it is not necessary to maintain popularity." (The Tsar's image in Russia was of course also very much tied to the Orthodox Church, and to the perception of him as the 'Little Father' of his people.) He was a weak man and ruler, however, and very much under his stiff and shy wife's thumb. They were both absolute disasters as far as the future direction of Russia went.

If the girls had lived and the Romanovs had remained on the throne is an intriguing but quite unlikely concept, isn't it? The four were deeply attached to their homeland and I've just got a feeling that at least two of them would be matched to a distant cousin of sufficient status among the innumerable branches of the extended Romanov family. I think Germany would be out as a source as the Kaiser was unpopular with Alexandra, but there might have been a Prince in Greece or the Balkan monarchies for one of the younger girls. Perhaps an English prince like Bertie Duke of York.

Sadly I can't see Alexei living to a great age. He'd already survived several traumatic episodes of haemophilia in childhood. He might have survived his teens, into his early twenties, but beyond that....


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on May 30, 2017, 01:11:56 am
If Alexei had been like his maternal granduncle, Prince Leopold The Duke of Albany, and be able to marry a wonderful Princess and father a few children to secure the succession to the throne.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HRHOlya on May 30, 2017, 07:52:39 pm
^^ Wow, Alex was really up herself..
I imagine a similar scenario. I've never wondered what other countries would be like if the class system were still going, just the Russians (and that only popped into my head last night), because court restrictions were unkind towards the young gand duchesses and because Alexei was so fragile. Maybe they'd ultimately have changed some rules so the girls would have had it easier to marry, but a foreign prince was a great possibility I guess. I think Alexei might have made it into his 20s, but beyond that...
^ If Alexei had made it to his 20s (likely as maximum as Rosella & I suspect), then he'd have to marry very young and have (male) heirs.. They were on quite shaky ground, if they wanted their direct line to survive and ascend..


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on May 30, 2017, 09:59:45 pm
I do wonder what would have become of the girls had they lived (esp if the family had remained on the throne), because it was insanely difficult for them to find "suitable" husbands, as they were extremely constricted by rules of the court and what rank was considered "appropriate" for a husband of a (imperial) grand duchess (unless they would just throw it all away and become commoners, but the court would have been left quite empty then imo).

Thing is, that Alexei was once photographed with the adorable Princess Illena of Romania and for a husband, there was a chance that Olga would become Queen Consort, but the girls cleverly decided to get a tan and disgusted the Romanian court as a result. Olga allegedly wanted to marry a Russian and said very firmly that she was a Russian and would marry a Russian. Grand Duke Cyril Vladimirovichi (a rotten family to the core) wanted Olga to marry his son Boris, but thankfully Alexandra refused outright. The Vladimir family was a fast set and Alexandra didn't want her daughter dragged into that. I bet Olga would have gladly married a commoner if she had found the right one and I think it would have unsettled some, but Nicholas would have fought for his daughter's happiness. There were dozens of soldiers and supposedly Lord Mountbatten was besotted with Marie. During that time the four were considered the most dazzling matrimonial prospects in the world.

Quote
I also wonder if Alexei would have made it to adulthood and
how long they could have handled his haemophila without today's medicine..

Supposedly Rasputin said that if Alexei made it to his seventeenth birthday that he would no longer be plagued by it. In my view Rasputin was a demon possessed witch who was basically keeping Alexandra in his thrall and not encouraging her to tell the public the truth about the disease. One author stated that it would have added fresh pressures, but it would have helped the public understand and Russians do adore children and would have sympathized.

Quote
^ "she was the one who was the driving force behind the preservation of the autocracy and she apparently did not think she needed to maintain popular affection of the people." Just shows how dangerous it is to be detached from the people and ignore them and disrespect the people. Even today. If only certain "royals" could get that in their thick heads...

Alexandra couldn't handle the transition to the grandeur of the Imperial court; billions worth of land holdings that were loaded with oil and gold while the Byzantine religious rituals were in fact among the many factors that Alexandra became so grand. Throw in the deference of the peasants and it made her BEYOND arrogant. I do think she was also unable to handle the fact that she was supposed to lead society.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on June 02, 2017, 01:58:27 am
No proof that Lenin ordered the murder of Nicholas II
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/8264321/No-proof-Lenin-ordered-last-Tsars-murder.html


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on June 03, 2017, 01:59:14 am
George V left the entire family in the lurch; the government wanted to give them asylum, but the king intervened and it was withdrawn. One of the most selfish acts of the fledgling "Windsor" dynasty and frankly I sincerely believe that the House of Windsor has been cursed ever since.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Ariel on June 03, 2017, 10:00:58 am
I think so too. Not saving the royal family changes the course of history and opened the door for genosides worldwide.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on June 03, 2017, 04:25:09 pm
It was.

According to the author Greg King, it started the aspect of the state arbitrarily deciding if whether or not someone lives or dies. Even the photos taken of the Grand Duchesses eerily presage the photos taken of Holocaust victims right before their murders. Not even the pretext of a trial.

I wonder how different things would be if the Romanovs had been taken in, given refuge.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on June 03, 2017, 04:46:07 pm
Lol no.

The borbon faimily was killed by guilllotine a century before and many other aristo families. Maybe they had trials but it was not like anyone was going to find them innocent. And genocided had happened before the holocaust. One could theorise that the romanoc power disappearing was part of the change of the western world that culminated in the wwii. But it probably had much more influence the disappearence of the austrian empire.

It is not as if the russian empire was all flowers and happiness. Rule of law was more the rule of the aristocracy and mainly the tsar.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on June 03, 2017, 05:40:01 pm
I know that, but the fact of the matter remains that if the main family had had refuge, at least there wouldn't have been such a vicious murder. In the French Revolution, they guillotined an anointed King and Queen under a sham trial, which set the precedent for the use of the guillotine on the people. Given the publicity surrounding the trial of a Tsar and Consort, it might have saved their lives once each had been given a chance to tell the truth in full. Nicholas and Alexandra could have explained things in more detail and even during the French Revolution, the daughter of Louis XVI was allowed to live and be released. There was never any justification for arbitrarily deciding to execute the daughters and a sickly hemophiliac boy.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: YooperModerator on June 03, 2017, 08:18:23 pm
The guillotine, during the Reign of Terror, was used widely on citizens and aristocracy before Louis XVI was beheaded.  So, it set no precedent.  The killing and revolutions against and of kings, queens, caesars, emperors is as old as 'civilization' itself.  So, I'm confused on your rationale with the Romanovs, KF. 


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on June 03, 2017, 10:04:35 pm
Nicholas and Alexandra were not given a chance to defend themselves, even in a puppet court; the children were butchered. There is no way that the BRF couldn't send a show of strength and send the Romanovs to one of their established colonies all around the world. There was no need to bring them to Britain itself. They could have been sent to Hong Kong, or to one of the African colonies, or one place on this earth; or they could have been ostensibly sent to one of the colonies, but secretly housed somewhere in Scotland. Thousands of acres of land and it would have been easy to keep it a secret. The BRF had the tools to send in some squadron in secret and no one would have been the wiser.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Ariel on June 03, 2017, 10:19:46 pm
Also, Louis 14th was self-serving and living the rich life on the expense of the people. Nikolas on the other hand was loved by half the nation, abdicated because he thought he was a weak ruler (his generals deserted him) and if he asked for asylum, then it was just because he wanted a peaceful life. His death lead to the rise of communism,to Stalin killing 20mil 'opponents' (19 more than Hitler), to Polpot killing half of Cambodia (3mil), the Tiananmen square genocide in China ... Lots of bad blood on brf's hands if they were begged for asylum and didn't say yes.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on June 03, 2017, 10:41:30 pm
The romanovss were a disaster to Russia, they were not good monarchs. Communism was a result to their bad governing not his death. Not that he deserved to die but neither the russian population had a better life. Maybe the result was worse for them than having a monarchy seriously who knows but they made a revolution because the situation was horrible.

Their death was unfair but it did not create the holocaust and neither did it create communism. He was also not the first tsar to get killed. Only that they had more luck with the wwi going on and they could overthrow the monarchy completely.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Joanna on June 04, 2017, 10:14:55 am
^ Alexandrine  :worship: :worship: I whole-heartedly agree!
In my opinion, the Romanovs, the Habsburgs, the spanish Borbons, the french Bourbouns, the Branganças, all of them produced a majority of weak kings who've weakened the strong people whom were their subjects. The weakness I'm talking about isn't lack of strenght, it's lack of wisdom, lack of knowledge, lack of intelligence to wield power. Terrible at ruling, ignorant, dissolute, self-absorbed and narcisistic kings make horrible, unthoughful, unkind and stupid decisions, and when a series of worldwide events occur, a set of circumstances starts to give rise to bigger concerns, and conflict situations and the people take drastic decisions, no matter how unfair to change the situation.

That's the problem with monarchies and governments, really, they always seem to forget that on the contrary to the lies they feed us about God-given rights to rule (how many kings and queens have been assassinated of victims of evil plots so someone more convenient would seat in the throne? Look at Isabella, the Catholic queen,directly she had no God-given right to rule, she just spread lies and conceived all sorts of machinations to overthrow Juana) or their abilities and projects to govern (republics), their right to rule comes from the people, because they allow themselves to be ruled by these individuals.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: meememe on June 04, 2017, 12:04:38 pm
George V had to make the decision he did to give his own family a chance.

Nicholas was a butcher in whose reign millions had died - not just in WWI. He ordered one of the largest pograms against the Jews for instance (many of those Jews migrated to the USA and many millions of others settled in Central Europe where they and/or their descendants became the victims of the holocaust).

Britain in early 1918 wasn't all sweetness and light but there were threats to that government as well. The country was war-weary and any suggestion of bringing Nicholas or any of the immediate family to Britain wouldn't have gone done well with the unions who were already setting up the decade that was to become the 1920s with strikes etc everywhere.

One of the positives though that came from that decision by George was his refusal to allow another first cousin to suffer an death at the hands of a military dictatorship and so Prince Andrew of Greece and his family, including a baby Prince Philip were rescued. Of course the royal family of Greece didn't have the bad press or history of the autocratic Romanovs.

No country wanted to have them. The Kaiser offered them safe passage through Germany to any western country who would take them but none would. Even the white army who were approaching Ekaterinburg when the family was killed couldn't agree on what to do with them if they rescued them - with some groups in the whites not even wanting to rescue them as they didn't want them back on the throne.

Nicholas' mother's Danish family took in his mother but made no offer of refuge to Nicholas and Denmark was officially neutral during the war. Sweden and Norway - also neutral and related to the Russian royal family also refused them refuge.

Why is it always George who is blamed when his country was at war with Germany at the time and in a state of unrest at home but other countries that weren't at war and were also related not blamed? Christian X of Denmark was as much Nicholas' first cousin as was George but he is never questioned about why he didn't offer refuge to his cousins. It is always blamed on George for some reason.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: jackiew on June 04, 2017, 01:06:09 pm
ITA, you brought up important points :thumbsup:, the other European royals could have helped them but chose not to, the other royal families should equally share in the blame of the death of the Romanovs not just King George.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: leogirl on June 04, 2017, 08:17:50 pm
So terrible that those innocent children were murdered like that.  :thumbsdown:


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: jackiew on June 04, 2017, 09:19:12 pm
Yes, their deaths were cruel.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on June 12, 2017, 02:51:30 am
Tsar Nicholas II visited Denmark in 1901. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD1zpzS5HtQ


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HRHOlya on June 13, 2017, 07:37:46 pm
Searching for the Tsars' treasure: Excavations begin near infamous concentration camp to find £200m loot Nazi troops stole from Russia's dazzling Amber Room in 1941

    German authorities in Thuringia approved the start of excavations in Nordhause
    Nazi German rocket scientists incarcerated slave labourers to build rockets used against Britain at former Dora-Mittelbau concentration camp in the area
    Authorities are looking for loot from the world-famous Amber Room of the Tsars
    The £200million treasure was stolen by Nazi German troops in Russia in 1941
    The loot disappeared in 1941 and its whereabouts have been unknown ever since


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4600512/Excavations-begin-Germany-200m-Amber-Room.html


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HRHOlya on June 19, 2017, 12:33:41 pm
>> Romanov family photos now in color
Russian artist Olga Shirnina (also known as 'klimbim') colors archive images of Romanov family.
By Ksenia Isaeva, RBTH

https://cdn.rbth.com/all/2016/05/16/romanov/4.jpg

The Last Russian Emperor of the Romanov dynasty, Nicholas II with his family: his wife Alexandra, daughters Maria, Olga, Tatiana and Anastasia, and son Alexei. All of them together with their servants, court physician Eugene Botkin, maid Anna Demidova, footman Aloise Trupp and cook Ivan Kharitonov were killed by the Bolsheviks in Yekaterinburg on the night of July 16-17, 1918.

https://cdn.rbth.com/all/2016/05/16/romanov/13.jpg

Empress Alexandra Fyodorovna with daughters. / The children, four daughters and one son, were raised and educated together in the Imperial Palace.

https://cdn.rbth.com/all/2016/05/16/romanov/22.jpg

Nicholas II ruled from 1 November 1894 until his enforced abdication on 2 March 1917.

https://cdn.rbth.com/all/2016/05/16/romanov/12.jpg

Nikolai II's reign was marked by Russia's economic development and a simultaneous growth in its socio-political contradictions, revolutionary movements that ignited the 1905-1907 revolution and the 1917 revolution. It also caused the Russo-Japanese war and Russia's participation in World War I.

https://cdn.rbth.com/all/2016/05/16/romanov/26.jpg

Empress of Russia Alexandra Fyodorovna. / Alix of Hesse, the future Alexandra Fyodorovna, first visited Russia when her older sister Ella married Nikolai’s brother, Sergey Alexandrovich, and became Elizaveta Fyodorovna. The future spouses’ next meeting occurred 5 years later, when Alexandra Fyodorovna spent a month and a half visiting her sister in St. Petersburg.

https://cdn.rbth.com/all/2016/05/16/romanov/10.jpg

Grand Duchess Marie, 1906. / Princesses Maria and Anastasia were the youngest and most amicable daughters. Encouraged by Anastasia, Maria started to play tennis, which had become popular at the time. The girls would also get carried away with their jokes, knocking paintings and other valuable items from the palace walls.

https://cdn.rbth.com/all/2016/05/16/romanov/18.jpg

Grand Duchesses Olga and Tatiana in Livadia, Crimea. / Russia’s Black Sea Fleet was based in Sevastopol, Crimea in the 19th and 20th centuries. Russian tsars often visited Sevastopol to inspect the fleet and attend official meetings and military celebrations. Among the Romanov family, Nikolai II, his wife and kids visited Crimea the most frequently.

https://cdn.rbth.com/all/2016/05/16/romanov/19.jpg

Nikolai II and his family spent most of their time at Alexandrovsky Palace (Tsarskoye Selo) or Peterhof. In the summer, they spent vacations in the Crimean residence, Livadia Palace. Every year, the tsar also vacationed on the yacht “Standard”, sailing for two weeks at a time along the Gulf of Finland and the Baltic Sea.

https://cdn.rbth.com/all/2016/05/16/romanov/24.jpg

Grand Duchess Ksenia Alexandrovna. / Photo was taken at a grand fancy-dress ball that took place at the end of February 1903 in the Winter Palace, St. Petersburg (today’s Hermitage Museum), which was to be the last ball of tsarist Russia.

https://cdn.rbth.com/all/2016/05/16/romanov/16.jpg

Grand Duchess Elisabeth, often called Europe’s most beautiful princess,  1914. / Elizabeth (Elizabeth of Hesse-Darmstadt and by Rhine) was born a German princess and, after marriage, became Elizabeth Fyodorovna, Grand Duchess of the House of Romanovs. Throughout her life, she helped the suffering. After her martyrdom during the Russian revolution, Elizabeth was canonized as a saint. Today, a sculpture of her is located among the martyrs of the 20th century on the façade of Westminster Abbey in London. <<

https://www.rbth.com/multimedia/pictures/2016/05/17/romanov-family-now-in-color_593511

A comment from RD
"I've talked to her about how she does it. It's a bit cheating, though, technically - she takes a composite image of someone's face and pastes it on in photoshop, and manipulates it; versus actually coloring it digitally. Clever and looks realistic though!!"

These are also cool
" Photos of famous Russian ballet dancers now in color
Rare archival photos of Russia’s principal ballet dancers have now been colorized."
https://www.rbth.com/multimedia/pictures/2016/07/12/ballet-colored-images_609687

PS While I'm at it.. These too!
"Incredibly Colorized Pictures Show The Life Of Russian People In The Past"
http://designyoutrust.com/2016/04/incredibly-colorized-pictures-show-the-life-of-russian-people-in-the-past/


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: leogirl on June 20, 2017, 12:54:01 am
That's really cool. It somehow makes it all seem more real seeing them in color like that.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HRHOlya on June 20, 2017, 09:42:58 am
^Yes! Black & white photos are supposed to be more flattering, but I find some of these coloured pics make the princesses (& tsar) look more stunning than in the b&w versions!

Maybe it's just me, but somehow the b&w pics make it all look so far away, like it's from such a different time that it's, I don't know, somehow "ungraspable", but the coloured pics make it more relatable, esp seeing the pics of everyday life of normal people.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on June 21, 2017, 02:03:01 am
The Dowager Empress Marie left Russia in 1919. She lived briefly with her nephew, King Christian X of Denmark. Did King Christian X offer Tsar Nicholas II, Tsarina Alexandra, and their children Denmark as a place of refuge to live if they would have departed from Russia?


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: meememe on June 21, 2017, 04:28:04 am
As far as I am aware the only monarch who offered sanctuary at all was George V who then withdrew the offer over fears about how the offer would be received in the UK at the time given the anti-war feelings at the time and the very real threats to his own throne and family which some people prefer to dismiss but they were real at the time. Neither the Greek royals, the Danes nor the Norwegians offered help to the Romanovs at that time as far as any research I have come up with can show. IF a member of the family escaped they were helped but the help wasn't offered to Nicholas and his wife and family. They were despised throughout the world as a cruel despot and as such no one wanted them.

George V is often pilloried but he would be pilloried even more if he had taken them in and lost his own family and throne for the sake of someone who was seen as a murderous tyrant (quite a few millions had died as a result of Nicholas' policies in failed wars, in putting down riots and revolutions and in the 'concentration camps' utilised in Siberia. Stolypin's necktie was widely used to execute anyone who spoke out against the Tsar and his policies.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on June 21, 2017, 04:33:16 am
It was the government that offered asylum, but George V pressured parliament to withdraw the offer; more Windsorian meddling.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Rosella on June 21, 2017, 04:46:28 am
The Danish Royal family weren't in contact with the Tsar and his family in their captivity, (nor were any other royal families or their governments' representatives.) The plots to rescue the Tsar and the Imperial Family is a fascinating and contentious subject FL, and I really recommend some books on their imprisonment and fate, as well as the specific threads at places like the Alexander Palace Forum and The Royal Forums, where there are some very interesting discussions that have gone on regarding the whole saga.

Of course the subject of King George V's actions in 1917 are debatable to this day, and Alfonzo XIII of Spain was very active in trying to get the IF family freed. (He and the Pope offered to financially support the IF too, if they could be transported to Spain.)

 He received a letter from Victoria Battenberg (Alexandra's elder sister and Prince Philip's grandmother) after the fate of Alexandra and her children were known, in which she expresses her heartfelt gratitude to Alfonzo and contrasts his behaviour with that of George. It is a very interesting communication.

All the Royal relatives were frantic about the Tsar and his family as time went on and nothing became known. The Norwegian and Swedish Kings were written to by Alfonzo and others with regard to helping the family escape to northern ports.

As regards the Danes, there is a Danish book by Bent Jensen which charts the escape from Russia by British warship of the Dowager Empress Marie (Dagmar) and her daughters, and Marie's later life in Denmark in the 1920's. The author mentions many attempts by the DRF and the Danish Govt to get the King's cousin, aunt and their families out of danger.

 Interestingly, the neutral Danish Govt tried twice to get the German authorities to allow transportation of the IF from Russia, across Germany and into Denmark and they were twice denied. Denmark was of course a small country and not so influential in these situations as the British at that time, but it's notable that the Kaiser intimated to the British, with whom his nation was at war, that he would be amenable to facilitating that. The Danish envoy to Russia, Harald Scavenus, worked extremely hard throughout.

The Danes apparently tried the tack with the Russian Provincial Government, (Kerensky's Govt) that as Imperial titles no longer applied in Russia that the Dowager Marie had now reverted to the Princess Dagmar of Denmark and she and her family should be allowed to return to her homeland!

The King and Queen of Denmark sent 500,000 roubles to Russia in December 1917. This was ransom to release the four Grand Dukes. They were shot by the Bolsheviks in January 1919. They had sent 25,000 roubles for the release of the Empress in the September. The DRF was/is not a wealthy family and this no doubt meant a considerable financial sacrifice. Of course, as we know, Marie did escape Russia and did eventually live in Denmark, where she and the King clashed about her extravagance!

Personally, I believe that if Nicholas and Alexandra's relatives had managed to negotiate their freedom and that of their children, it would have had to have been early, before the fall of the Provisional Government and before Ekaterinburg. Once Kerensky sent the family to Siberia then they were doomed, IMO. Certainly once they were in the power of the Bolsheviks at Ekaterinburg, there was no way out.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on June 21, 2017, 05:08:46 am
I can't get over what I've just read.

The Danes did ALL they could with what little they had, but the Windsors had all that money and power and influence and did NOTHING. Not just nothing, but actively prevented the rescue that may well have changed history for the better, literally overriding official government policy.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on June 22, 2017, 02:07:20 am
Here is Dowager Empress Marie Feodorovna with her nephew King  Christian X on her arrival in Denmark in 1919. 
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/63824519693888034


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on June 22, 2017, 03:13:56 am
I'm' just disgusted that the less than wealthy and powerful Danes did all they could and the Windsors did nothing.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on July 05, 2017, 02:05:13 am
If the real Anastasia had survived, she could not have become the reigning Tsarina (Empress) Regnant because of the succession laws being changed by Tsar Paul I.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on July 05, 2017, 03:15:02 am
I think the Pauline Laws became obsolete the minute the Imperial Family began to be gunned down by the Bolsheviks. The closest relation to Nicholas II is Prince Rostislav (through the line of the sister of Nicholas II, who was Grand Duchess Xenia) and the closest living relation should be considered Head of House. The Vladimirs claimed Headship even while the Dowager Empress was still alive, who basically was considered the natural leader at the time. I do wonder just why on holy mother earth the Vladimirs just can't give it up and stop the claiming of the headship. Prince Rostislav is the natural head.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on July 09, 2017, 02:11:31 am
In the summer of 1922 Grand Duke Cyril Vladimirovich declared himself Curator of the Russian Throne.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on July 12, 2017, 02:10:12 am
The four Grand Duchesses in color   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u83GmeO8dI0


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on September 27, 2017, 02:09:15 am
When Alice in Wonderland was first read to Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna, the child was horrified at the manners of queens. :sob: :sob: :sob: :sob:


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on October 04, 2017, 01:46:17 am
Was Alexandra, the spouse of Nicholas II, worried that she would not be able to handle the responsibilities as Empress once she became Empress of Russia?


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Rosella on October 04, 2017, 03:49:02 am
^ Perhaps. Alexandra did not shine at grand social events which were so much a part of a Tsarina's life. Her father in law's death was a shock to the family I'm sure, as he was only in his late forties. As we know, the reign began badly, thousands of people crushed at a supposed celebration, the whispers about Alexandra 'coming to the Russian people following a coffin,' etc.

However, she was absolutely sure of Nicholas's love and support always and that helped her ideas about Russia and its society ossify over the years, until she could tell her grandmother Victoria, who asked about her reclusiveness 'Here it is not necessary to make oneself popular'. She was shy and stiff and awkward in social occasions (where her mother in law Marie shone) prudish, and completely one-eyed in her support for autocracy. She and Nicholas were absolute disasters for Russia, IMHO.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on October 05, 2017, 07:30:20 pm
I was surprised to discover that Alexandra was not considered a good wife and her father in law didn't even bless the wedding when he was dying.

Nicholas only was able to marry her bacause his father died.

It is ironic that even Victoria asked her about reclusiveness. I can understand being introverted but I don't choose jobs that will make me be overly extroverted.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on October 06, 2017, 01:39:07 am
Did Alexandra confide in her sister, Grand Duchess Elizabeth? After all, Elizabeth had married Grand Duke Sergei some years before Alexandra wed Nicholas.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Rosella on October 06, 2017, 02:28:14 am
After her marriage Grand Duchess Ella kept inviting Alix to Russia. Queen Victoria was always very worried about her granddaughters marrying Romanovs and living in Russia, as she considered it a dangerous and unstable country. (This was even after Alix refused to marry Prince Eddy, second in line to the British throne, something that disappointed Victoria. She wrote to her daughter Vicky that Ella was determined by hook or by crook to promote any match that would lead to Alix joining her in Russia.

Nicky was in love with Alix since 1889, when she had spent six weeks in St Petersburg. Alix's father, Grand Duke Louis of Hesse-Darmstadt, objected to her marrying Nicky on religious grounds. Tsar Alexander and his wife Marie felt that other candidates would be more suitable as Nicky's wife. Marie apparently found Alix too quiet and shy and a bit peculiar. However, in early 1894 a sick Tsar Alexander relented and gave permission to Nicky to ask for Alix's hand. They became engaged in Darmstadt the week that Alix's sister Victoria married Prince Louis Battenburg.

Ella was delighted that her sister married Nicky and for several years the couples saw quite a lot of each other. However, as the years passed Alix and Nicky retreated more and more into their home life, especially after Alix's health became bad, and of course Ella devoted herself to charity and founded a religious nursing Order after her husband was assassinated in 1905.

The last meeting between the sisters occurred late in 1916. Like the rest of the Romanovs Ella felt that the country and the dynasty were facing disaster. She travelled from Moscow to the Alexander Palace. The sisters' conversation went badly, however. Alexandra refused to discuss Rasputin. Ella reminded her of the fate of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. The Tsarina immediately ordered a car to take her sister to the station. Ella said sadly 'Perhaps it would have been better if I had not come?' 'Yes' Alexandra said. And with that, they parted for the last time.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on November 11, 2017, 11:47:54 pm
Before taking the throne, Nicholas II expressed, 'I am not yet ready to be Tsar. I know nothing of the business of ruling.'


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on November 15, 2017, 11:20:49 pm
Tsarevich Alexis Petrovich feigned or induced illness to avoid the instructional tasks his father, Tsar Peter I appointed him. Alexis even tried to shoot himself in the hand to avoid work.       
:hide: :hide: :hide: :sneezy: :sneezy: :sneezy: :hide: :hide: :hide:


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on November 30, 2017, 11:07:57 pm
Which bank in England did Tsar Nicholas II have valuables sent to?


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: YooperModerator on November 30, 2017, 11:10:23 pm
^Are you considering a withdrawal?  Just joshing you.  I have no earthly idea where they banked.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on December 11, 2017, 10:27:35 pm
The engagement of Grand Duke Vladimir Alexandrovich to Princess Marie of Mecklenburg-Schwerin in 1874.   
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/85990674111009439


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on December 16, 2017, 10:38:29 pm
Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna married Nikolai Kulikovsky. Since she was married to a commoner, Olga was not arrested with the rest of her Imperial family after the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on December 29, 2017, 10:03:53 pm
Grand Duchess Catherine Pavlovna was the daughter of Tsar Paul I of Russia. She was named after her grandmother, Empress Catherine II. It was said that she was Tsar Alexander I's favorite sister.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on January 02, 2018, 09:35:57 pm
Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich in uniform:   
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/409264684862216607


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on January 03, 2018, 11:49:33 pm
Grand Duchess Tatiana often accompanied her father the Tsar for walks when no aide-de-camp was available.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on January 05, 2018, 10:19:07 pm
Private moments of Tsar Nicholas II and his family.   
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2321790/Private-moments-Russian-Tsar-family-captured-camera-executed-Bolsheviks.html


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on January 11, 2018, 10:09:21 pm
Tea in Russia was introduced in 1638. A Mongolian ruler donated to Tsar Michael I four poods (65-70 kg) of tea.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on February 01, 2018, 09:31:17 pm
After Grand Duke Sergei's demise in 1905, Grand Duchess Elizabeth sold off her wedding ring to build a convent. Is it not sad when a lady, especially a Grand Duchess, has to sell her wedding ring?


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Ariel on February 04, 2018, 07:16:10 pm
We don't know why she sold her wedding ring. If it was not to put food on the table but to do something good in the world like building a convent, then it's ok. I don't understand the fascination to hoard things, including jewelry. If you have way too much - give it away, build a convent, build a school. To me she did amazing job with this ring.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Rosella on February 04, 2018, 07:53:54 pm
It wasn't just the ring. One wedding ring would have done nothing. Ella returned valuable wedding presents and art etc to members of her family. She sold land that had been left for charitable purposes to Sergei. The magnificent jewellery she had worn as his wife, the Grand Duchess Sergei,  she sold and got over 290,000 roubles for it all (the equivalent of about five million pounds today.) With this she built a convent for the Order of nursing nuns she founded, established an orphanage, clothed and fed the poor and needy, got medicines. Ella dedicated her life to serving those who could not help themselves from that moment.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on February 13, 2018, 11:55:51 pm
Princess Dagmar of Denmark (Marie Feodorovna) received Russian language lessons in Copenhagen, Denmark before leaving for Russia. Whenever she wrote a letter to Alexander (III), she would begin the first paragraph or two in Russian.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on February 15, 2018, 11:17:37 pm
Grand Duchess Anastasia, the daughter of Tsar Nicholas II, drew a lot and liked to color in their photographs and decorate photo albums.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on March 05, 2018, 09:56:23 pm
In the First World War Nicholas II changed the name of the imperial capital from the Germanic Saint Petersburg to the Slavic Petrograd.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on March 09, 2018, 10:37:39 pm
With Empress Catherine II, by imperial manifesto issued on February 26, 1764, all ecclesiastical lands and property became state property. The church itself became a state institution.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Kuei Fei on March 10, 2018, 12:48:21 am
I do not view Catherine the Great as a good Empress; she reneged on promises she made to supporters for their help in overthrowing her husband.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on March 13, 2018, 09:14:40 pm
An article on Nicholas II and Alexandra's 1894 wedding from a San Francisco newspaper:               
   http://www.holy-trinity.org/history/1894/11.27.SFCall1.html


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on March 15, 2018, 09:47:40 pm
Emperor Nicholas I called his wife Empress Alexandra (Princess Charlotte of Prussia) Mouffy.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on March 16, 2018, 09:04:28 am
 :laugh:


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on March 16, 2018, 09:48:53 pm
:laugh:
     
How did Mouffy originate?


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on March 20, 2018, 09:51:32 pm
Did the Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna attempt to take Alexandra of Hesse and by Rhine under her wing when Alexandra first came to Russia?aw1


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on March 20, 2018, 09:53:48 pm
Did the Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna attempt to take Alexandra of Hesse and by Rhine under her wing when Alexandra first came to Russia?


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on March 26, 2018, 10:05:49 pm
Emperor Alexander III loved the family gatherings at Fredensborg Palace in Denmark.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on March 30, 2018, 10:52:20 pm
In 1918 Grand Duchess Elizabeth was arrested on the orders of Lenin. She had been offered the opportunity to flee Russia but chose instead to remain with her order.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Alexandrine on April 02, 2018, 04:05:51 pm
 :flower: Interesting details thank you frederick louise!



Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on April 03, 2018, 10:44:57 pm
:flower: Interesting details thank you frederick louise!


     
 
Alexandrine, Thank you!     
Alexander II was the first Russian Emperor of modern times to visit Siberia.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on April 07, 2018, 10:41:34 pm
As Emperor Paul I stated in his declaration of April 5, 1797, the day of his coronation, the Orthodox faith is "inseparable" from the Russian throne "because the sovereign in Russia is the Head of the Church."


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on April 16, 2018, 09:59:19 pm
During the last years of Imperial Russia, Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna (Grand Duchess Vladimir) used to have her own tea party at the Marinsky Theatre whenever Empress Alexandra and Dowager Empress Marie Feodorovna were out of town.  :queeny: :queeny: :queeny: :queeny:


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on April 17, 2018, 10:23:24 pm
When did Princess Victoria Melita convert to the Russian Orthodox Church? Was it before or after her marriage to Grand Duke Cyril?


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HRHOlya on April 17, 2018, 10:38:25 pm
^ 2 years after marriage.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on April 24, 2018, 11:06:49 pm
Nicholas II smoked Benson & Hedges made especially for him.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on May 08, 2018, 01:15:09 am
When Grand Duchess Elisabeth became widowed in 1905, did she travel often to see her sister Princess Victoria of Battenburg?


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: Rosella on May 08, 2018, 03:05:54 am
Victoria sometimes travelled to Russia to see her sisters but much of the time the family reunited in Hesse, in the old family home which Ernie their brother owned. When Ella became a nun her entire focus was on setting up her convent and then helping her patients and the poor. I don't think Ella did very much travelling after that.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on May 30, 2018, 01:58:09 am
Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich enjoyed automobiles. He had a garage filled with motorcars which he loved to drive.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on June 23, 2018, 02:29:37 am
After his mother was forced to enter a convent in 1698, Tsarevich Alexis Petrovich was brought up by his aunts.


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on July 15, 2018, 02:42:56 am
Entrance of Tsar Alexander I   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjprn_6zRAM


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: HRHOlya on July 16, 2018, 12:49:23 am
A century after the Tsar and his family were murdered and Lenin seized power, how the Daily Mail might have recorded this event if it happened today - including a profile of the 'sex-crazed monk who destroyed a dynasty'

    Vladimir Lenin ordered execution of Tsar of Russia, Nicholas II and family
    Drunk guards form a firing squad in the basement of the family's house
    Four daughters including Anastasia and son finished off with bayonets

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5956753/Butchered-Bolsheviks-look-execution-Tsar-Russia-century-on.html


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on August 08, 2018, 02:56:13 am
Empress Marie Feodorovna visited the Islands of Petrograd in 1910.   
http://www.gettyimages.com/license/3254644


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on August 14, 2018, 02:57:48 am
Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich leaving Ballater Station on a visit to Queen Victoria at Balmoral.   
http://www.gettyimages.com/license/802496508


Title: Re: The Romanovs
Post by: FrederickLouis on August 18, 2018, 02:56:26 am
Tsar Peter I at the Troitsa Monastery receiving the deputations of the Streltsi.   
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-tsar-peter-i-at-the-troitsa-monastery-receiving-the-deputations-of-7675577.html